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Old 03-22-2009, 10:44 AM
Peter Alfredsen
 
Default Time to move on?

On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 19:17:53 -0600
Mike Diehl <mdiehl@diehlnet.com> wrote:

> It seems that as
> long as I keep rebuilding machines from a current live CD, all is
> well. But if I try to upgrade anything else, I end up having to
> reformat. I've been using Gentoo long enough to have actually met
> Daniel Robbins in person, but I'm considering moving to a different
> distribution.

I would say that if you do a complete world update at least every six
months, followed by revdep-rebuild, keeping Gentoo up-to-date should be
relatively painless, excluding all the blockers you have to resolve.
ie.:
emerge -uDNav world
revdep-rebuild -i -- -a

The libselinux problems you ran into are known, but that's also the
reason why libselinux is masked on all recent profiles.

/loki_val
 
Old 03-22-2009, 10:52 AM
Neil Bothwick
 
Default Time to move on?

On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 07:37:50 -0400, Philip Webb wrote:

> 090322 Neil Bothwick wrote:

> > I hope you use --oneshot every time
> > or your world file will be a complete mess by now
>
> Yes, there's always someone who says that (grin).

I wouldn't want to disappoint you

> Of course, it's 2nd nature to check for 'W' or 'S' in my list
> & if the pkg has neither, make sure to 'emerge -1 <pkgname>'.

I just use -1 whenever I re-emerge anything, whether it's in world or not.

> Anyway, isn't 'world' going to vanish with the new '@' sets ?

No.

> > One or two problems a week against the thousands of people running it
> > each day does not indicate a problem. I'd say that avoiding blockers
> > etc by selectively skipping upgrades is more likely to lead to
> > problems later.

> No, people run 'emerge world' in the background, miss the messages
> & then run into nasty trouble for omitting RR or 'etc-update'.

Don't blame hammers because people try to use them to drive screws.

Letting idiots break their systems is a refreshing sign of Gentoo's lack
of idiot-proofing


--
Neil Bothwick

All mail what i send is thoughly proof-red, definately!
 
Old 03-22-2009, 12:07 PM
Dirk Heinrichs
 
Default Time to move on?

Am Sonntag, 22. März 2009 02:17:53 schrieb Mike Diehl:

> Ok now, I'm getting fed up with all of the breakage that I've seen in
> Gentoo in the last few months.
>
> I'm trying to upgrade MythTV. Emerge told me to upgrade my profile, which
> I did.
>
> Now I'm doing an emerge -u world.
>
> But before I could do that, I had to upgrade portage, with made sense.
>
> When I go to emerge -u portage, I'm told:
>
> sys-apps/mktemp (is blocking sys-apps/coreutils-7.1)
>
> So I do:
> emerge -C mktemp

Depending on which package you unmerge before the blocker is resolved, this
can break your system. This is while paludis and newer versions of portage can
be told to resolve blockers automatically.

> Has Gentoo become such a moving target that it's no longer suitable for
> normal, every day, usage?

Not if you keep it up to date. Then, even a ~arch system is relatively
painless to use.

> I've got another machine that needs to be upgraded, but hasn't been
> upgraded in some time. So it's profile is obsolete and many of the core
> packages have been moved around so much that there is no upgrade path from
> where it is now, to where Gentoo is.

There always is. However, the longer the path, the more pitfalls may be on it.

> Is it time to start looking for a new distribution? It seems that as long
> as I keep rebuilding machines from a current live CD, all is well.

??? I don't understand.

> But if
> I try to upgrade anything else, I end up having to reformat.

That also doesn't make sense.

> I've been
> using Gentoo long enough to have actually met Daniel Robbins in person, but
> I'm considering moving to a different distribution.

dito.

> Remember, all I want to do is upgrade MythTV.

So, then just do it. People here will help you to resolve the issues.

Bye...

Dirk
 
Old 03-22-2009, 12:18 PM
Damian
 
Default Time to move on?

This is just a testimony.

I remember I had similar problems (but probably they were my fault),
so I tried to replace gentoo using distros such as Suse or Ubuntu, but
when I wanted to customize some things it was terribly difficult. So I
returned to my previous love. The only difference is that this time
I'm using paludis as a package manager. No problems so far.

Best regards,
Damian.
 
Old 03-22-2009, 01:48 PM
Albert Hopkins
 
Default Time to move on?

On Sun, 2009-03-22 at 12:44 +0100, Peter Alfredsen wrote:
> I would say that if you do a complete world update at least every six
> months, followed by revdep-rebuild, keeping Gentoo up-to-date should
> be
> relatively painless, excluding all the blockers you have to resolve.
> ie.:
> emerge -uDNav world
> revdep-rebuild -i -- -a

I've done this on a machine I hadn't touched in over 6 months. And,
surprisingly, I was relieved that it came out fine. Though I did have
the advantage of:

* Having another machine that I upgrade regularly and so know what
to look out for
* I read and react to, if necessary, the elog messages from the
ebuild chatter (I have them sent to my mailbox)
* Checking the bug database if I run into a snag
* General experience on how to maintain a (Gentoo) system

That and, if a particular version does not work out for you, you often
can downgrade to an older version. Or if you don't like the way
something is built, even with the available USE flags, you can usually
keep a simple patch and keep your own version in a private overlay. I
love this stuff. This is why I use Gentoo.

Contrast with another distro I use. I recently upgraded to version n+1
and am encountering all kinds of problems. I have versions of software
installed that don't work or don't work the way they used to, but I
can't go back. I can't install the older versions of packages because
they depend on older versions of libs that no longer exist on version n
+1 (and there are no such thing as SLOTs and revdep-rebuild). And even
if I thought about downgrading the entire distro to version n that
pretty much means a re-install of the entire OS (and then a re-update of
the downgraded OS). I've submitted two bugs for version n+1 but one
that I submitted in January hasn't even been responded to and the other
was quickly closed as a WONTFIX.

Not to criticize other distros (which is one reason why I didn't even
name it), but my point is that they all have their pluses and minuses.
For me at least, Gentoo comes with fewer minuses and when they do come
they are usually easier to fix/get fixed. The caveat is that you
actually have to know/care what you're doing.
 
Old 03-22-2009, 05:56 PM
"James Homuth"
 
Default Time to move on?

-----Original Message-----
From: Philip Webb [mailtourslow@ca.inter.net]
Sent: March 22, 2009 7:38 AM
To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Time to move on?

090322 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 02:58:57 -0400, Philip Webb wrote:
>>> Now I'm doing an emerge -u world.
>> I never do that: I always do 'emerge -Dup world', then decide which
>> packages to update & emerge them individually.
> I hope you use --oneshot every time
> or your world file will be a complete mess by now

Yes, there's always someone who says that (grin).
Of course, it's 2nd nature to check for 'W' or 'S' in my list & if the pkg
has neither, make sure to 'emerge -1 <pkgname>'.
Anyway, isn't 'world' going to vanish with the new '@' sets ?

>> I also have a list of all the pkgs I have installed with dates +
>> deps, which I keep upto-date by hand as I emerge items.
>> I've never understood why 'emerge world' is considered standard:
>> repeatedly, there are appeals for help resulting from its shortcomings.
> One or two problems a week against the thousands of people running it
> each day does not indicate a problem. I'd say that avoiding blockers
> etc by selectively skipping upgrades is more likely to lead to problems
later.

No, people run 'emerge world' in the background, miss the messages & then
run into nasty trouble for omitting RR or 'etc-update'.
That's the spirit of Ubuntu & the rest, not the hands-on Gentoo approach.

I run emerge world in the background and still run etc-update when I'm told
to. Crontab emails plus portage's --quiet flag are awesome. Speaking of
that, going to run that now.
 
Old 03-22-2009, 06:46 PM
Dale
 
Default Time to move on?

Philip Webb wrote:
> 090322 Neil Bothwick wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 02:58:57 -0400, Philip Webb wrote:
>>
>>>> Now I'm doing an emerge -u world.
>>>>
>>> I never do that: I always do 'emerge -Dup world',
>>> then decide which packages to update & emerge them individually.
>>>
>> I hope you use --oneshot every time
>> or your world file will be a complete mess by now
>>
>
> Yes, there's always someone who says that (grin).
> Of course, it's 2nd nature to check for 'W' or 'S' in my list
> & if the pkg has neither, make sure to 'emerge -1 <pkgname>'.
> Anyway, isn't 'world' going to vanish with the new '@' sets ?
>

Nope, they are still there and the sets are working too.


Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 03-22-2009, 06:46 PM
Dale
 
Default Time to move on?

Philip Webb wrote:
> 090322 Neil Bothwick wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 02:58:57 -0400, Philip Webb wrote:
>>
>>>> Now I'm doing an emerge -u world.
>>>>
>>> I never do that: I always do 'emerge -Dup world',
>>> then decide which packages to update & emerge them individually.
>>>
>> I hope you use --oneshot every time
>> or your world file will be a complete mess by now
>>
>
> Yes, there's always someone who says that (grin).
> Of course, it's 2nd nature to check for 'W' or 'S' in my list
> & if the pkg has neither, make sure to 'emerge -1 <pkgname>'.
> Anyway, isn't 'world' going to vanish with the new '@' sets ?
>

Nope, they are still there and the sets are working too.


Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 03-22-2009, 07:23 PM
Mark Knecht
 
Default Time to move on?

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 6:17 PM, Mike Diehl <mdiehl@diehlnet.com> wrote:
> Ok now, I'm getting fed up with all of the breakage that I've seen in Gentoo
> in the last few months.
>

Understood and personally felt.

<SNIP>
>
> emerge -C mktemp
>

Generally a *very* bad move unless you are *absolutely* sure that what
you are removing is not needed to keep the system working.

<SNIP>
>
> Has Gentoo become such a moving target that it's no longer suitable for
> normal, every day, usage?

OK, I'm a putz who has used Gentoo now for (I think) 8-9 years. I'm
not a developer, a programmer or a sys admin. Keep that in mind.

Gentoo goes through phases of relative stability interrupted by
periods of time where major problems dominate. (As seen by users, not
the Lords of Gentoo (LoG)) Personally I think we're in one of those
unfortunate periods of time where there is a relatively high number of
issues. I'm seeing it on all my machines. It's taking far more of my
time to deal with this than I wish it would.

1) ntp-update problems at boot time.
2) emerge -DuN world building lots of packages that are already on the
system but the LoG has apparently changed flags so emerge wants to
rebuild them.
3) New and unclear (to me) messages about portage flag overrides
caused by overlays I've been using for a while.

Am I frustrated like you? Yep. Very much so. Am I considering using
something else? Quite a few thoughts. Do I think there's a better
distro? Not that I know of.

My workload:

1) Gentoo 64-bit desktop
2) Gentoo 32-bit desktop
3) Gentoo 32-bit mythbackend
4) Gentoo 32-bit mythfrontend
5) Gentoo 32-bit mythfrontend

Cheers,
Mark
 
Old 03-22-2009, 07:45 PM
Neil Bothwick
 
Default Time to move on?

On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 13:23:38 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:

> 2) emerge -DuN world building lots of packages that are already on the
> system but the LoG has apparently changed flags so emerge wants to
> rebuild them.

Don't use --newuse, use --reinstall changed-use.


--
Neil Bothwick

Most software is about as user-friendly as a cornered rat!
 

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