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Old 02-05-2009, 09:59 AM
Momesso Andrea
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

On Thu, Feb 05, 2009 at 02:26:40AM -0600, Dale wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > On Thursday 05 February 2009 09:57:38 Dale wrote:
> >
> >> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thursday 05 February 2009 09:28:50 Jesús Guerrero wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> There are enough easy-to-use distros. Let us, "masochists", live in
> >>>> peace. We love pain, why do people care so much about what we do
> >>>> with our privacy? :P [it's a joke, in case anyone didn't notice]
> >>>>
> >>>> There have been several attempts to make a decent installer. They
> >>>> all failed miserably and got abandoned. Why? Because to tell the
> >>>> truth, no one has an authentic interest in the matter. The simple
> >>>> answer is most probably the right one.
> >>>>
> >>> To add to you (excellent) arguments:
> >>>
> >>> There is no GUI admin tool for gentoo. You drive this puppy on the
> >>> command line with tools like emerge, equery, genlop, layman and q. That's
> >>> how it works, we are all comfortable with this, and this is good.
> >>>
> >>> I can't think of a single reason why the installer should operate in a
> >>> different manner to the way the thing will be used.
> >>>
> >> Does porthole count? I use it sometimes and it is well all right. I
> >> miss etcat myself. Just as I was starting to get used to it, it
> >> disappeared.
> >>
> >
> > You're just stirring the pot Dale :-)
> >
> > I know for a fact that you can hold your own with emerge and eix :-)
> >
> >
> >
>
> I do OK with emerge. Eix, I know two uses. eix-sync and eix
> <package-name>. I do know a few equery commands tho. I suspect it will
> disappear soon since I am learning a little bit about it. lol

[OT] I give you another nice use for eix: "update-eix-remote update" [/OT]

=======
TopperH
=======
 
Old 02-06-2009, 08:27 PM
Sebastian Günther
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

* Nikos Chantziaras (realnc@arcor.de) [05.02.09 09:12]:
>
> Than I'll rephrase my statement: Gentoo would need a non-bugged GUI
> installer
>
No, Gentoo needs no GUI or CLI installer. It is very good, that if you
install Gentoo for the first time, you must actually read the
documentation, because it introduces you in the whole managing Gentoo
stuff. What is important in the Handbook are not the commandline
examples, but the surrunding text. Also you cannot just click away any
defaults: Gentoo is about choise and YOU have to make the choices even
when you are just installing. And you can only make good choices, when
you read about them. BTW: Most of the choices have no meaningful
default.

What would make things easier is a fully automated installer, that just
duplicates/repeat your well-thought-out choices on reinstalls or
multiple installs. Something like: Her is an xml file, eat this and see
you tomorrow at lunch time with a smiling SLiM.

>
>> Then they ran away yelling how bad this gentoo crap is that
>> doesn't work at all unless you do a lot of black magic on the
>> command line! "Because I want full control over my system, but
>> only clicking next. The OS should read my mind!"
>
> I don't think anyone should care about that. Installation and maintenance
> are two different things. A good GUI installer would pretty much allow you
> to do the same things as the CLI installer. It's just a different
> interface. And besides, installation is much more "standardized" than
> actual maintenance. There's no reason why a GUI installer can't do the
> same things as the CLI one. You'll just have GUI widgets instead of
> text-mode characters, maybe with a lot of automation and safe defaults
> thrown in.
>

Well, there isn't even a CLI installer. And on Gentoo I have to
disagree on the fact that that installation is always the same, the very
fact of kernel configuration makes it impossible to standardize
anything.

And Genkernel is so Un-Gentoo: If you don't know how to configure your
kernel, you have chosen the wrong way at the very beginning.

> Personally, even though I'm an old fart (I installed Slackware when it
> first came out, used it for years), I prefer GUI installers. Installation
> is *boring*. I need to do the steps manually even though they're pretty
> much the same every time you install.

You don't need a GUI: you need an automatic installer.

> I'm OK with CLI maintenance. But for the installer I really prefer GUI.
>

>
>> If we clear that from the beginning so everyone knows what to
>> expect from gentoo AND WHAT GENTOO EXPECTS FROM YOU then that
>> problem is gone.
>
> You don't need to make such a statement through the installer. There are
> other, more suitable places for this. Like in the docs, website, or a
> notice in the... installer
>
> Also, Gentoo isn't really black magic. There's no good reason why emerge
> for example isn't GUI based. Or revdep-rebuild. Or layman. Or... I hope
> you get the point Yes, those things need a lot of work and there are no
> people willing to do the task. But I'm just trying to make a point here:
> the way you do maintenance in Gentoo isn't based on the traditional Unix
> tools. That means, you could have GUIs for all of them.
>

Well, you have to have CLI, because X is not mandatory.
Besides: If you want GUI, write it. It is not that hard to write a
wrapper around those tools, which uses gtk or qt or whatever gui
toolkit.


> But I'm drifting. The installer is pretty much separated from all this.
> After all, "all" it needs to do is set up stage3 and tweak the settings.
>
>
>
> GUIs for the simple things is good. Maybe CLI for the hairy stuff.
>

I hate GUIs. Clicking is for Apple Users...

>
>> Someone would argue that's too hard to start, but that's why
>> we have excellent docs, mailing lists, forums and irc, with
>> a very high traffic and lots of friendly people giving away
>> their time for free to help you. So, whomever can't find a
>> way is either too lazy or too shy to talk to the people around.
>> Gentoo was never meant to win a popularity price. I prefer to
>> stay without nothing at all that to have the lot of problems
>> that the installer has been creating during 3 years of existence.
>> It harmed the gentoo popularity (if you like that argument)
>> much more than the lack of a installer.
>
> But popularity is good for the project. It ensures that it stays healthy,
> supported and can draw in new devs. If popularity gows down, devs leave,
> more bugs show up that don't get fixed, etc.
>

But Gentoo is for nerds. For those who know what they are doing. For the
ones that what to learn what is really going on and the ones that only
want those things they need, not what a maintainer thought would be
useful to have.

Gentoo does not need the usual computer user nor can it serve them:
There is too less knowledge to make appropiate choices.

This does not disclose people who have the faintest idea what a kernel config
from using it, but from maintaining and installing it.

Gentoo can be your first Linux, but usually it isn't; you come here
because you don't get what you want from the other distros: insight and
control.

We need to be the better Linux for nerds. We are cool, because we let
you roll^^^^emerge your own.

BTW: I came because of performance: Could not watch an .avi in X on my
pentium III (666 Mhz iirc) with debian. Took days for the stage 1
install, but then: like a rocket...

>
>> Besides that, there's no easy way that you will understand Gentoo
>> if you are not going to read the handbook. And even then, it takes
>> time to become familiar with the way that USE flags truly work
>> (and I mean to understand it, and not just do -qt -kde +gnome +gtk
>> blindly that most users do (or the other way around) without
>> even knowing what's behind the scene and how USE flags and ebuilds
>> relate to each other.
>
> Now this is actually a pro-GUI argument. Why? In a GUI interface, you can
> simply throw the truth at the user's face in an elegant way. "Well dude,
> those USE flags you see here actually control the way we are going to build
> the sources. Click here to get a description of what the gtk flag means for
> this package."
>
> The user learns.

The user will *never* click here. They click OK.

>
>
>> Let's assume it: you are building a distro. It's easy enough as it
>> is. Usability is good, but the only way that Gentoo could get
>> easier is just by taking features away and lowering the degree of
>> control that the users have.
>
> Gentoo is easy as it is. How easier could it get? GUI tools don't really
> result in less features. They're only there to deal with the most common
> of them.
>

That why no one cares: I want to have full control, and this
obfustication does not help. And a Gui with all options and the man page
as tooltips is as hellish as any Windows GUI can get.

>
>> There are enough easy-to-use distros. Let us, "masochists", live in
>> peace. We love pain, why do people care so much about what we do
>> with our privacy? :P [it's a joke, in case anyone didn't notice]
>
> You would still be free to use the CLI. Hell, even I would for many
> things. But an nice tray icon that goes like "Gentoo Updates are
> available" wouldn't hurt me either. I click it, the emerge GUI shows up
>

First of all: There are enough Gentoo installs without X arround the
world. Second: Writing GUIs btw is far more boring than installing...
Third: There are *always* updates for gentoo. so put eix-sync in a
cronjob.
Last not least: Well, the panel plugin for arbitrary command execution
exists (eg. diff-eix /var/cache/eix.previous) , and it shouldn't be hard
to add a starter with xterm emerge -DuN @world...

>
>> There have been several attempts to make a decent installer. They
>> all failed miserably and got abandoned. Why? Because to tell the
>> truth, no one has an authentic interest in the matter. The simple
>> answer is most probably the right one.
>
> And that's because Gentoo is not really popular. :P
>

The really problem is, that it seems that Ubuntu is sometimes more up to
date than Gentoo...

So the problem is what Steve Ballmer said: Developers, developers,
developers!

Notice self: I should really think about getting more involved...

>
>> By the way, did I already said that anyone that can read can also
>> install Gentoo? Lost of people with no experience with linux did
>> it with very little or no help.
>
> GUIs have fonts. You can read those too
>
>

But noone will read it. Did you ever read anything the Windows Installer
stated to you when there only was OK and Abort?

Sebastian

--
" Religion ist das Opium des Volkes. " Karl Marx

SEB@STI@N GÜNTHER mailto:samson@guenther-roetgen.de
 
Old 02-07-2009, 06:17 AM
Sebastian Günther
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

* Dale (rdalek1967@gmail.com) [06.02.09 23:56]:
>
> This was one thing I liked about Mandrake, now Mandriva. Put in the CD,
> boot up, set up drives, select ALL the software you can stand, let it
> install and then reboot. What really made it good, when you reboot, ALL
> your software is already installed. Dang that was cool. It doesn't run
> as fast as Gentoo but if you want a Linux install in a hurry, that is
> one way to get it. Then you can use Mandrake to do your Gentoo
> install. chroot works wonderfully. Run into a problem, just go to a
> browser and search the forums etc to get help.
>
*Install* Mandrake, to install Gentoo?

Where were you when Klaus invented Koppix...

> All this beats winders hands down.
>
This surely not...

> Dale
>

Sebastian

--
" Religion ist das Opium des Volkes. " Karl Marx

SEB@STI@N GÜNTHER mailto:samson@guenther-roetgen.de
 
Old 02-07-2009, 06:43 AM
Dale
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

Sebastian Günther wrote:
> * Dale (rdalek1967@gmail.com) [06.02.09 23:56]:
>
>> This was one thing I liked about Mandrake, now Mandriva. Put in the CD,
>> boot up, set up drives, select ALL the software you can stand, let it
>> install and then reboot. What really made it good, when you reboot, ALL
>> your software is already installed. Dang that was cool. It doesn't run
>> as fast as Gentoo but if you want a Linux install in a hurry, that is
>> one way to get it. Then you can use Mandrake to do your Gentoo
>> install. chroot works wonderfully. Run into a problem, just go to a
>> browser and search the forums etc to get help.
>>
>>
> *Install* Mandrake, to install Gentoo?
>
> Where were you when Klaus invented Koppix...
>

At the time I had never heard of Knoppix and I am not even sure if it
was around then. Also, I already had Mandrake installed. That was my
first Linux.


>
>> All this beats winders hands down.
>>
>>
> This surely not...
>

Yep, when I saw winders 3.1 and what a mess it was, I quit my puter job
and went to work for a magazine company. Got out of the puter mess. I
have never bought anything M$ either. I have never had anything winders
on my computer either.

>
>> Dale
>>
>>
>
> Sebastian
>
>

Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 02-07-2009, 06:38 PM
Sebastian Günther
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

* Nikos Chantziaras (realnc@arcor.de) [07.02.09 18:25]:
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> On Sat, 07 Feb 2009 15:53:20 +0200, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>>> I'm not gonna duplicate what I wrote. Read it again :P
>> Repeating something does not increase its validity.
>
> That's why I didn't repeat it in the first place maybe?
>
>
>> You stated that
>> Gentoo needs a GUI installer. The number of people using it without one
>> shows that is simply not true.
>
> Hmm. OK, how 'bout this:
>
> Someone says that Linux is general is needed. The number of people using
> their computers without it shows that is simply not true.
>
>

Faulty argument:

We did not state that GUI installers are not needed in general, but that
Gentoo in specific does not need one. For several reasons.

Sebastian

--
" Religion ist das Opium des Volkes. " Karl Marx

SEB@STI@N GÜNTHER mailto:samson@guenther-roetgen.de
 
Old 02-07-2009, 06:43 PM
Sebastian Günther
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

* James Homuth (james@the-jdh.com) [07.02.09 18:29]:

> if Gentoo needs anything, it's a more accessible method of installing for
> those users who can't actually see the screen. Don't get me wrong, I love
> the distro for several reasons, but if I were to install linux locally on
> any of my desktops, it would probably be debian or ubuntu simply for the
> fact their methods of instalation are actually useable to me.bbb

If i have to do *multiple* installs for several copumters, which I do
not use myself, I choose debian, because fai rocks.

Shouldn't this fai be adopted for Gentoo? I should investigate if this
is possible...

--
" Religion ist das Opium des Volkes. " Karl Marx

SEB@STI@N GÜNTHER mailto:samson@guenther-roetgen.de
 
Old 02-08-2009, 07:54 AM
Sebastian Günther
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

* Neil Bothwick (neil@digimed.co.uk) [07.02.09 22:42]:
> On Sat, 7 Feb 2009 20:43:04 +0100, Sebastian Günther wrote:
>
> > If i have to do *multiple* installs for several copumters, which I do
> > not use myself, I choose debian, because fai rocks.
> >
> > Shouldn't this fai be adopted for Gentoo? I should investigate if this
> > is possible...
>
> Did you look at quickstart, mentioned earlier in this discussion?
>
>

Nope, unless fai-quickstart was meant...

Any links?

Sebastian

--
" Religion ist das Opium des Volkes. " Karl Marx

SEB@STI@N GÜNTHER mailto:samson@guenther-roetgen.de
 

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