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Old 02-05-2009, 10:01 AM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

On Donnerstag 05 Februar 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:.
>
> > I can't think of a single reason why the installer should operate in a
> > different manner to the way the thing will be used.
>
> Because installation is boring. The easier it is, the better.

wrong. The installation needs a certain difficulty to keep idiots away. Nobody
needs idiots (except maybe ubuntu).
 
Old 02-05-2009, 10:04 AM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

On Donnerstag 05 Februar 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Donnerstag 05 Februar 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> >> Sebastián Magrí wrote:
> >>> The installation experience with the traditional method must be
> >>> mandatory... That's why I think we are better now that GLI is
> >>> deprecated...
> >>
> >> That's not good. It hurts Gentoo's popularity if it's not easy to
> >> install. But since there are not enough devs left for the GUI
> >> installer, not much that can be done.
> >>
> >> Gentoo isn't unsuitable for a GUI installer. It's stage 3, after all.
> >
> > gentoo had its highest popularity when there were no gui installer (and
> > no stable tree). This kept the stupid ' I don't want to read docs' crowd
> > away.
>
> That's a contradicting statement. How was the popularity at highest if
> it kept a crowd away?

because it kept the 'i am too cool to read the docs' idiots away. Being forced
to read the documentation is a good thing - and it did not hurt gentoo's
popularity. Only after it started to catering to idiots and more and more of
loud mouthed 'I am the centre of the universe, I don't need to read docs, use
google or bugzilla. I demand an answer and help NOW' assholes came on board,
the popularity went down.
 
Old 02-05-2009, 10:15 AM
Cocoy Dayao
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

my style has always been to get the minimal installer. chroot, install
kernel to my specs then boot to hard drive, then start building it to
how i want it built.


the handbook is pretty specific and straight-forward. one just has to
follow it. i've done N installs over the years and i still turn to the
handbook, just to keep track.


anyway. if people find the installer difficult.... maybe gentoo isn't
for them.


On 02 5, 09, at 7:01 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:


On Donnerstag 05 Februar 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:.


I can't think of a single reason why the installer should operate
in a

different manner to the way the thing will be used.


Because installation is boring. The easier it is, the better.


wrong. The installation needs a certain difficulty to keep idiots
away. Nobody

needs idiots (except maybe ubuntu).



yes, installation is VERY boring. that's part of the compromise, i
guess.



Cocoy
www.twitter.com/cocoy
"People who are really serious about software should make their own
hardware" -- Alan Kay
 
Old 02-05-2009, 10:36 AM
Nikos Chantziaras
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

On Donnerstag 05 Februar 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:.

I can't think of a single reason why the installer should operate in a
different manner to the way the thing will be used.

Because installation is boring. The easier it is, the better.


wrong. The installation needs a certain difficulty to keep idiots away. Nobody
needs idiots (except maybe ubuntu).


That is insulting. My mother uses Ubuntu. Thanks for calling her an
idiot. Obviously if someone wants to use his computer in order to get
something done without doing a Ph.D on Portage and /etc first, then that
person is an idiot.


Great thinking. Fortunately, there are people (like the Ubuntu folks)
who don't think that way and are trying to make Linux more popular to
people who need a computer to do tasks that are not related to the
computer itself.
 
Old 02-05-2009, 11:01 AM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

On Donnerstag 05 Februar 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Donnerstag 05 Februar 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:.
> >
> >>> I can't think of a single reason why the installer should operate in a
> >>> different manner to the way the thing will be used.
> >>
> >> Because installation is boring. The easier it is, the better.
> >
> > wrong. The installation needs a certain difficulty to keep idiots away.
> > Nobody needs idiots (except maybe ubuntu).
>
> That is insulting. My mother uses Ubuntu. Thanks for calling her an
> idiot.

no, I didn't call her 'idiot'. I am just stating that ubuntu tries to cater
for idiots.

> Obviously if someone wants to use his computer in order to get
> something done without doing a Ph.D on Portage and /etc first, then that
> person is an idiot.

no. He is an idiot if he does not read the docs. Simple. Like people who don't
read the manual to their car or vcr and then complaining if something does not
work. Idiots.
 
Old 02-05-2009, 11:45 AM
Neil Bothwick
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 13:36:45 +0200, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:

> Great thinking. Fortunately, there are people (like the Ubuntu folks)
> who don't think that way and are trying to make Linux more popular to
> people who need a computer to do tasks that are not related to the
> computer itself.

Kudos to Ubuntu for that and for what they have done in popularising
Linux. But Gentoo is not Ubuntu, the distros have different aims and a
different set of users. Gentoo should no more aim for their target user
base than their colour scheme.


--
Neil Bothwick

Cereal Killer Strikes Again! Cap'n Crunch found dead...
 
Old 02-05-2009, 12:48 PM
Saphirus Sage
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Donnerstag 05 Februar 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>
>> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>
>>> On Donnerstag 05 Februar 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> I can't think of a single reason why the installer should operate in a
>>>>> different manner to the way the thing will be used.
>>>>>
>>>> Because installation is boring. The easier it is, the better.
>>>>
>>> wrong. The installation needs a certain difficulty to keep idiots away.
>>> Nobody needs idiots (except maybe ubuntu).
>>>
>> That is insulting. My mother uses Ubuntu. Thanks for calling her an
>> idiot.
>>
>
> no, I didn't call her 'idiot'. I am just stating that ubuntu tries to cater
> for idiots.
>
>
>> Obviously if someone wants to use his computer in order to get
>> something done without doing a Ph.D on Portage and /etc first, then that
>> person is an idiot.
>>
>
> no. He is an idiot if he does not read the docs. Simple. Like people who don't
> read the manual to their car or vcr and then complaining if something does not
> work. Idiots.
>
>
>
>
>
And this is why RTFM is a good and common acronym.
 
Old 02-05-2009, 12:53 PM
Saphirus Sage
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

Cocoy Dayao wrote:
> my style has always been to get the minimal installer. chroot, install
> kernel to my specs then boot to hard drive, then start building it to
> how i want it built.
>
> the handbook is pretty specific and straight-forward. one just has to
> follow it. i've done N installs over the years and i still turn to the
> handbook, just to keep track.
>
> anyway. if people find the installer difficult.... maybe gentoo isn't
> for them.
>
> On 02 5, 09, at 7:01 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>
>> On Donnerstag 05 Februar 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:.
>>>
>>>> I can't think of a single reason why the installer should operate in a
>>>> different manner to the way the thing will be used.
>>>
>>> Because installation is boring. The easier it is, the better.
>>
>> wrong. The installation needs a certain difficulty to keep idiots
>> away. Nobody
>> needs idiots (except maybe ubuntu).
>>
>
> yes, installation is VERY boring. that's part of the compromise, i guess.
>
>
> Cocoy
> www.twitter.com/cocoy
> "People who are really serious about software should make their own
> hardware" -- Alan Kay
>
>
There are certain situations where the "step-by-step" installer isn't
adequate. For instance, when I was installing gentoo on my G4, it was
straight forward and easy, but when I decided to do a minimal install on
my Everex laptop, I needed to use initrd, which I previoiusly had no
experience with and the Gentoo handbook didn't mention. Granted, it
eventually worked, but I would be hesitent to say that there was
adequate documentation on it.
 
Old 02-05-2009, 01:04 PM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

On Donnerstag 05 Februar 2009, Saphirus Sage wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Donnerstag 05 Februar 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> >> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> >>> On Donnerstag 05 Februar 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:.
> >>>
> >>>>> I can't think of a single reason why the installer should operate in
> >>>>> a different manner to the way the thing will be used.
> >>>>
> >>>> Because installation is boring. The easier it is, the better.
> >>>
> >>> wrong. The installation needs a certain difficulty to keep idiots away.
> >>> Nobody needs idiots (except maybe ubuntu).
> >>
> >> That is insulting. My mother uses Ubuntu. Thanks for calling her an
> >> idiot.
> >
> > no, I didn't call her 'idiot'. I am just stating that ubuntu tries to
> > cater for idiots.
> >
> >> Obviously if someone wants to use his computer in order to get
> >> something done without doing a Ph.D on Portage and /etc first, then that
> >> person is an idiot.
> >
> > no. He is an idiot if he does not read the docs. Simple. Like people who
> > don't read the manual to their car or vcr and then complaining if
> > something does not work. Idiots.
>
> And this is why RTFM is a good and common acronym.

exactly. If someone read the docs and still has a question - that is ok.
Googled and did not find what he looked for. Happens all the time. Nothing
wrong with asking a question. Nobody expects somebody to understand everything
or find every answer in the manuals. But somebody who didn't even try to find
the answer for himself - that person does not deserve help. Only pity that he
is such an idiot.
 
Old 02-05-2009, 02:18 PM
Grant Edwards
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

On 2009-02-05, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 10:13:54 +0200, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>
>> > I can't think of a single reason why the installer should operate in
>> > a different manner to the way the thing will be used.
>>
>> Because installation is boring. The easier it is, the better.
>
> There is an automated installer in development. It is script based, so
> you avoid the boredom factor without shielding people from the fact that
> they will need to use the terminal and text files once it is installed.
>
> http://agaffney.org/quickstart.php

That sounds like something I wished I had several times in the
past few weeks.

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Do you guys know we
at just passed thru a BLACK
visi.com HOLE in space?
 

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