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Old 02-04-2009, 11:42 AM
Sebastián Magrí
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

El mié, 04-02-2009 a las 11:09 +0100, Jesús Guerrero escribió:
>
>
>
> El Mie, 4 de Febrero de 2009, 0:06, Paul Hartman escribió:
> > On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Whenever I see a write-up of Gentoo, it's describe as a system
> >> similar to BSD "ports" where you build packages from source. The main
> >> benefit claimed for this approach is that you get better performance
> >> because all executables are optimized for exactly the right instruction
> >> set.
> >>
> >> Where did that bit of apocrypha come from, and why is it
> >> parroted by so many people?
> >
> > I've never done any benchmarks on my system of i386 vs core2 or
> > anything like that... I think the fact that gentoo allows you to control
> > compiler flags which can potentially give you speedups is more of it. But,
> > like you, building from source is kind of a side-effect of Gentoo and not
> > the reason why. Compiling for the sake of compiling is just a waste of
> > time, and that's why a lot of people say "Just use Ubuntu" or whatever.
>
> Not really. Compiling the things gives you control over what
> dependencies will that package have. In a binary distro mplayer
> will usually push like 80 or 800 (I never counted them) packages
> due to the number of features that it potentially has.
>
> If you don't install those, then the ldd info of the binary is
> broken because it can't find the needed object files outside of
> mplayer.
>
> Compiling the packages allow you to tune CFLAGS, ok. But even if
> you think that -most times- this doesn't make a difference, it's
> still worth the trouble compiling it, if only for the sake of
> mplayer not having to depend on 200MB of additional software for it
> to install correctly.
>
> In gentoo, this is as easy as to set your use flags up, and then
> emerge. Easy as hell, and you don't have to go ./configure'ing
> with a dozen parameters every single package in your system,
> because portage takes cares of that.
>
> I absolutely don't care much about the CFLAGS stuff, I just set
> up my -march and forget about it for years. And I think that
> there's a lot of point in using GEntoo, even if you have zero
> interest in compiling sofware there're still a lot of reasons
> why I would use Gentoo over any other Linux.
>
>

Also, Gentoo is a great school. If you want to learn how a Linux system
works, and really want to learn about Unix systems, then Gentoo is the
best for you. The huge knowledge base is one of the things that make
Gentoo as good as it is, and left the users without excuses when they
break the system.

With the power of the CPUs growing every day, the -long time compiling-
idea is becoming irrelevant, this way, I see more benefits on continue
using mi beloved Gentoo and feel users have less excuses to continue
using other distros, but, they are free of choosing, I choose Gentoo
because Gentoo lets me choose...
 
Old 02-04-2009, 08:57 PM
Paul Hartman
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Sebastián Magrí <sebasmagri@gmail.com> wrote:
> El mié, 04-02-2009 a las 22:24 +0200, Alan McKinnon escribió:
>> On Wednesday 04 February 2009 19:48:27 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>> > > Gentoo forces you to use linux in the sense that you need to
>> > > do all the work by yourself to install it. What you describe is
>> > > just the regular update/install process, which is simple enough
>> > > as you said.
>> >
>> > It was very easy for me. The first I came in tough with Gentoo was with
>> > the 2007 DVD. I booted, double clicked the installer icon, clicked
>> > "next" a few times with checking some tickboxes too, and then emerged -e
>> > system and world and the packages I need.
>>
>> You should have been around in the days when stage1 was still supported.
>>
>> Now that was fun. For varying definitions of "fun" of course :-)
>>
>
> The installation experience with the traditional method must be
> mandatory... That's why I think we are better now that GLI is
> deprecated...
>

I think my first attempt to install Gentoo was a stage 1, several
years ago on a box with a network card not supported by the drivers on
the Live CD... and of course the distfiles CD did not have the current
versions since I was using a portage snapshot from that day. My
printed install guide didn't help because i couldn't google when
things didn't work the way it said they should work now that was a
fun experience I, of course, realized it was fruitless and went
stage2 instead... and did emerge -e world when it was all up & running
on the network. and the rest is history.

I don't think I've ever seen the graphical installer for gentoo. I
don't have a problem with a simple "click here to have a working
gentoo installation", I don't think installing an OS should be an
educational experience necessarily, sometimes if you already know how
Gentoo works you just want to get it over with. Of course if gentoo
stores certain configs in unique places compared to other distros, and
the whole portage system in general, having some early exposure could
make it easier once it's all up and running, but someone who can read
the manual should have no trouble either way. (assuming the installer
works)
 
Old 02-05-2009, 07:46 AM
Joshua Murphy
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 3:29 AM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@arcor.de> wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>
>> On Donnerstag 05 Februar 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>>>
>>> Sebastián Magrí wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The installation experience with the traditional method must be
>>>> mandatory... That's why I think we are better now that GLI is
>>>> deprecated...
>>>
>>> That's not good. It hurts Gentoo's popularity if it's not easy to
>>> install. But since there are not enough devs left for the GUI
>>> installer, not much that can be done.
>>>
>>> Gentoo isn't unsuitable for a GUI installer. It's stage 3, after all.
>>
>> gentoo had its highest popularity when there were no gui installer (and no
>> stable tree). This kept the stupid ' I don't want to read docs' crowd away.
>
> That's a contradicting statement. How was the popularity at highest if it
> kept a crowd away?

Because once those who know what they were doing have to resort to
"Learn to read", "Read The Friendly Manual", and "Ever heard of
Google?" so often, after likely having answered the same questions
10+times each, they all get a bad reputation, hurting the real
popularity of the system. Also, you can't count popularity of
something like Gentoo from the number that start to try it and give up
half way through the install... but rather by those who're still using
it some meaningful amount of time.

All... *entirely* wild guesses, though.

--
Poison [BLX]
Joshua M. Murphy
 
Old 02-05-2009, 11:21 AM
Dirk Uys
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 1:36 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@arcor.de> wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> wrong. The installation needs a certain difficulty to keep idiots away.
>> Nobody needs idiots (except maybe ubuntu).
>
> That is insulting. My mother uses Ubuntu. Thanks for calling her an idiot.
> Obviously if someone wants to use his computer in order to get something
> done without doing a Ph.D on Portage and /etc first, then that person is an
> idiot.
>
> Great thinking. Fortunately, there are people (like the Ubuntu folks) who
> don't think that way and are trying to make Linux more popular to people who
> need a computer to do tasks that are not related to the computer itself.
>

Idiot is such a strong word (I should probably get another name for my dog).

The type of user I don't like is the ignorant type. Innocent users are
ok, they don't know, but ignorant users choose not to know. And so
often these ignorant users demand that they should be able to do
anything on a computer. If you wish to benefit from using computers,
you should be prepared to spend some time to get to know how the stuff
works. The more you want to do, the more you need to know. Not: "I
want amarok without mysql and xyz plugin running all silky and smooth,
but don't give me any command line run-arounds or lots of talk about
USE flags".

Regards
Dirk
 
Old 02-05-2009, 07:18 PM
Mark Knecht
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:

<SNIP>

>
> and gentoo was never meant for the clueless.

Ah, come on Volker, say what's true. My 81 year old dad uses Gentoo
and he cannot use vi.

Maybe you really meant, but didn't say, 'Gentoo was never meant for
the clueless administrator'.

Once it's up and running it's Linux. Nothing more. Nothing less.

What's the big deal?

- Mark
 
Old 02-05-2009, 07:20 PM
Mark Knecht
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Joshua D Doll <joshua.doll@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think the Handbook and other Official gentoo docs are well and written. I
> feel they are so well written and informative that a new user could read and
> follow what the doc is trying to convey.
>
>
> --Joshua Doll

I agree. Everything except the grub part. It's well written but it
requires more knowledge about the actual hardware than the rest of it,
especially if you do it wrong and have to recover.

- Mark
 
Old 02-05-2009, 07:32 PM
Paul Hartman
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Joshua D Doll <joshua.doll@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think the Handbook and other Official gentoo docs are well and written. I
>> feel they are so well written and informative that a new user could read and
>> follow what the doc is trying to convey.
>>
>>
>> --Joshua Doll
>
> I agree. Everything except the grub part. It's well written but it
> requires more knowledge about the actual hardware than the rest of it,
> especially if you do it wrong and have to recover.

I helped my brother install Ubuntu and the lack of control over grub
was frustrating. It just did what it wanted to do without asking
(which was install grub onto the wrong drive with the wrong drive
numbers, because the BIOS boot order did not match Ubuntu's detected
drive order). If that drive had been part of a RAID or had some
important metadata in the boot sector, it could have been a disaster.

No distro is perfect. Gentoo is perfect for me, though
 
Old 02-05-2009, 07:38 PM
Joshua D Doll
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

Paul Hartman wrote:

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:


On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Joshua D Doll <joshua.doll@gmail.com> wrote:



I think the Handbook and other Official gentoo docs are well and written. I
feel they are so well written and informative that a new user could read and
follow what the doc is trying to convey.


--Joshua Doll


I agree. Everything except the grub part. It's well written but it
requires more knowledge about the actual hardware than the rest of it,
especially if you do it wrong and have to recover.



I helped my brother install Ubuntu and the lack of control over grub
was frustrating. It just did what it wanted to do without asking
(which was install grub onto the wrong drive with the wrong drive
numbers, because the BIOS boot order did not match Ubuntu's detected
drive order). If that drive had been part of a RAID or had some
important metadata in the boot sector, it could have been a disaster.

No distro is perfect. Gentoo is perfect for me, though




I think you mean to say no boot loader is perfect. ;-)

--Joshua Doll
 
Old 02-05-2009, 07:57 PM
Mark Knecht
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Paul Hartman
<paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Joshua D Doll <joshua.doll@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the Handbook and other Official gentoo docs are well and written. I
>>> feel they are so well written and informative that a new user could read and
>>> follow what the doc is trying to convey.
>>>
>>>
>>> --Joshua Doll
>>
>> I agree. Everything except the grub part. It's well written but it
>> requires more knowledge about the actual hardware than the rest of it,
>> especially if you do it wrong and have to recover.
>
> I helped my brother install Ubuntu and the lack of control over grub
> was frustrating. It just did what it wanted to do without asking
> (which was install grub onto the wrong drive with the wrong drive
> numbers, because the BIOS boot order did not match Ubuntu's detected
> drive order). If that drive had been part of a RAID or had some
> important metadata in the boot sector, it could have been a disaster.
>
> No distro is perfect. Gentoo is perfect for me, though

I completely agree. I like the control also.

I only took a *very* small exception to Joshua's statement that a 'new
user' could read, follow it and understand what it's telling him/her
to do and then do it and come out with a working machine. I think it's
true if the new user builds exactly the 3 partition example shown in
the docs and does *only* the very basic install on a machine that
doesn't have Windows, etc. However I think that the docs (not the
software!) could be improved to handle things like dual-boot, either
another distro or windows, etc. which personally I think 'new users'
come up against. Issues about stuff like where to put the MBR, why and
why not to do that sort of thing, requires (or is vastly enhanced) if
that new user has some knowledge about hard drives, booting, etc.

- Mark
 
Old 02-05-2009, 08:44 PM
Joshua D Doll
 
Default Gentoo's advantage: 'optimized for your system' -- huh?

Mark Knecht wrote:

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Paul Hartman
<paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com> wrote:


On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:


On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Joshua D Doll <joshua.doll@gmail.com> wrote:



I think the Handbook and other Official gentoo docs are well and written. I
feel they are so well written and informative that a new user could read and
follow what the doc is trying to convey.


--Joshua Doll


I agree. Everything except the grub part. It's well written but it
requires more knowledge about the actual hardware than the rest of it,
especially if you do it wrong and have to recover.


I helped my brother install Ubuntu and the lack of control over grub
was frustrating. It just did what it wanted to do without asking
(which was install grub onto the wrong drive with the wrong drive
numbers, because the BIOS boot order did not match Ubuntu's detected
drive order). If that drive had been part of a RAID or had some
important metadata in the boot sector, it could have been a disaster.

No distro is perfect. Gentoo is perfect for me, though



I completely agree. I like the control also.

I only took a *very* small exception to Joshua's statement that a 'new
user' could read, follow it and understand what it's telling him/her
to do and then do it and come out with a working machine. I think it's
true if the new user builds exactly the 3 partition example shown in
the docs and does *only* the very basic install on a machine that
doesn't have Windows, etc. However I think that the docs (not the
software!) could be improved to handle things like dual-boot, either
another distro or windows, etc. which personally I think 'new users'
come up against. Issues about stuff like where to put the MBR, why and
why not to do that sort of thing, requires (or is vastly enhanced) if
that new user has some knowledge about hard drives, booting, etc.

- Mark



I 100% agree that the docs can and should cover more. Maybe a flowchart
would be useful?


--Joshua Doll
 

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