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Old 09-16-2008, 09:47 PM
»Q«
 
Default A plea for calm

On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 22:05:22 +0100
David Leverton <levertond@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday 16 September 2008 22:14:47 b.n. wrote:
> > Frankly, the more you challenge him this mindless way, the more I
> > believe him.
>
> If you think in such backwards logic then I don't care who you
> believe.

It's not "backwards logic". The choice to use the list for flame wars
makes anyone who does it seem malicious, not just you.

--
»Q«
Kleeneness is next to Gödelness.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 10:10 PM
David Leverton
 
Default A plea for calm

On Tuesday 16 September 2008 23:18:42 b.n. wrote:
> I am not going to do it because of the treatment I'd be reserved by people
> like ciaranm, or you, if I only needed help or disagreed with your opinions.

What on Earth makes you think that? Volker is certainly not asking for help,
and he is not merely "disagreeing", but preaching his gospel of lies at every
conceivable opportunity. If you don't do that (which is surely wise in any
case) you won't receive the corresponding response.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 10:13 PM
David Leverton
 
Default A plea for calm

On Tuesday 16 September 2008 22:47:49 »Q« wrote:
> It's not "backwards logic".

"The Paludis developer posts evidence that the liar is lying, therefore I'm
going to believe the liar" is entirely backwards.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 10:18 PM
"b.n."
 
Default A plea for calm

David Leverton ha scritto:

On Tuesday 16 September 2008 22:14:47 b.n. wrote:

Frankly, the more you challenge him this mindless way, the more I
believe him.


If you think in such backwards logic then I don't care who you believe.



It's not backwards logic.

The important words are "this mindless way". If you were challenging him
quietly and thoroughly, *maybe* someone could have given credit to
your arguments.


As someone said, there is no worse thing you can do a cause, than
defending it with the wrong arguments.


Bitching and arriving to a children-in-the-school behaviour is the worst
thing you can do to your cause. Before I thought paludis was an
interesting package manager. Now I think it is an interesting package
manager with an *awful* community behind, and even if I am curious to
try it, I am not going to do it because of the treatment I'd be reserved
by people like ciaranm, or you, if I only needed help or disagreed with
your opinions.


Of course you can say "I don't care of you and people like you". But,
hey, this means no one cares about you too.


Don't know who wins in such cases, but I have the feeling it is not you.


m.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 10:29 PM
"Mark Shields"
 
Default A plea for calm

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 6:13 PM, David Leverton <levertond@googlemail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday 16 September 2008 22:47:49 »Q« wrote:

> It's not "backwards logic".



"The Paludis developer posts evidence that the liar is lying, therefore I'm

going to believe the liar" is entirely backwards.




What's Paludis?*
Just kidding. *Never used it, I'm happy with portage.
--
- Mark Shields
 
Old 09-16-2008, 10:47 PM
David Leverton
 
Default A plea for calm

On Tuesday 16 September 2008 23:53:20 b.n. wrote:
> David Leverton ha scritto:
> > On Tuesday 16 September 2008 23:18:42 b.n. wrote:
> >> I am not going to do it because of the treatment I'd be reserved by
> >> people like ciaranm, or you, if I only needed help or disagreed with
> >> your opinions.
> >
> > What on Earth makes you think that?
>
> Your behaviour.

Towards people who only need help or disagree (rationally) with my opinions?
Such as?

> The IRC log posted on the r0bertz blog.

Don't do something so draw-droppingly idiotic if you don't want to receive the
appropriate reaction.

> This is paranoid behaviour.
> To think that there is a "hate campaign" about your little software is
> utterly paranoid.

It's not paranoid, it's true. I've seen it.

> Actually, I'm pretty sure >99.999% of world population just doesn't care
> about your software.

Perhaps, but some of the people who do care care in a rather malicious way.

> Moreover, as I told you some time ago, the only way to shut up lies is
> *facts*. In software, facts means code.

As I told you some time ago, these people don't care about code.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 10:53 PM
"b.n."
 
Default A plea for calm

David Leverton ha scritto:

On Tuesday 16 September 2008 23:18:42 b.n. wrote:

I am not going to do it because of the treatment I'd be reserved by people
like ciaranm, or you, if I only needed help or disagreed with your opinions.


What on Earth makes you think that?


Your behaviour.
The IRC log posted on the r0bertz blog.

Just two examples.

Volker is certainly not asking for help,
and he is not merely "disagreeing", but preaching his gospel of lies at every
conceivable opportunity. If you don't do that (which is surely wise in any
case) you won't receive the corresponding response.


This is paranoid behaviour.
To think that there is a "hate campaign" about your little software is
utterly paranoid. You are not Linux, no Microsoft is doing a "get the
facts" campaign on you. Actually, I'm pretty sure >99.999% of world
population just doesn't care about your software.


That said, I don't agree with everything Volker says (frankly I saw no
problem at all with a paludis-only overlay, and I said that before, and
I don't think there is a "paludis conspiracy" just like I don't think
there is an "anti-paludis conspiracy"), and Volker's tone was not better
than yours.


But I'm sure that he talks this way because he's actually concerned
about your software and the behaviour of your community. And reading
stuff like the IRC logs of ciaranm (and you defending his behaviour) I
can't but agree.


None of you was constructive in the discussion. For example, a
sub-thread went this way: Volker said Paludis is bloated. You answered
"no it's not". He said "yes it is" and then it became a sensless
blah-blah "liar-liar". Why don't you just go at your desks, count lines
of code/features/memory consuption/executable size/whatever fits your
measures of "bloated" and decide numerically what's bloated or not?


Moreover, as I told you some time ago, the only way to shut up lies is
*facts*. In software, facts means code. You can take it as, think, a
contest. He says Paludis is bloated? Let's compare them, and, in the
meantime, let's aggressively reduce memory consumption! Let's modularize
it (if it's not already), so everyone can have his pet features without
complaining. If it's already modular, let's write the appropriate plugin
and tell him "see how easy it was?". Et cetera. When you will have huge,
undeniable facts on your side, you won't need to fear any "conspiracy".
And if someone still denies them, well, let's make those facts even
huger and more solid -that is, go and code again.


That way you not only will win your flamewars with more arguments, but
make the life of users better.


m.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 11:10 PM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default A plea for calm

On Wednesday 17 September 2008, David Leverton wrote:
> On Tuesday 16 September 2008 22:47:49 »Q« wrote:
> > It's not "backwards logic".
>
> "The Paludis developer posts evidence that the liar is lying, therefore I'm
> going to believe the liar" is entirely backwards.

since you can't stop and fill up may spam box:

I provided evidence. You didn't. You have provided nothing. You attacked me.
And you continued to attack me all day long. That says a lot about you.

That is the last thing I will post in this thread or as an answer to you. So
be happy.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 11:15 PM
David Leverton
 
Default A plea for calm

On Wednesday 17 September 2008 00:10:26 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> I provided evidence.

You provided lies.

> You attacked me.

I defended my project against your attacks.

> That is the last thing I will post in this thread or as an answer to you.

A likely story.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 11:25 PM
David Leverton
 
Default A plea for calm

On Wednesday 17 September 2008 00:27:54 b.n. wrote:
> If he *knew* it was idiotic, he *would not* have done it, isn't it?

That's his problem.

> Until I will see anti-paludis campaigns in the streets, sorry, it's just
> paranoia.

That seems like a rather arbitrary restriction. As you said, most people in
the world don't care about anything Gentoo-related, so campaigning in the
streets seems rather unlikely, but that's no excuse for spreading lies
amongst the subset of people who do care.

> And, sir, what would the aim of those people be? What advantage they
> have from maliciously and viciously crushing Paludis? Will they become
> richer? More powerful? Or it's for the women?

My theory is that they're scared. Or it could just be because they enjoy
hurting other people.

> And you are not doing that. Trying to win on Volker, you are losing with
> everyone else.

Only the irrational ones.
 

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