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Old 06-17-2008, 05:29 PM
Grant Edwards
 
Default Ati or Nvida

On 2008-06-17, Platoali <platoali@gmail.com> wrote:

> Does this mean that AMD have not released 3d parts of the drivers? Do
> they plan to release the 3d parts?

AMD hasn't release _any_ parts of the drivers, and they have no
plans to do so.

> Although all tests have been run on windows. It seems that Ati have
> better hardware and it is also going to be more open source friendly
> in near future.

IMO, it's going to be a long time before there are usable
open-source ATI driver.

> I'm planning to use this workstation for 3 or 4 years or even
> more.

If I were you, I wouldn't plan on having decent ATI drivers in
3 or 4 years.

> So I'm thinking to risk a little and bet on AMD, and hope
> that they deserve my hard earned money. but I'm not sure yet.
> I need to do a little more search about AMD plans, and current
> development status of ATI driver.

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! I've got a COUSIN
at who works in the GARMENT
visi.com DISTRICT ...

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Old 06-17-2008, 05:36 PM
"Hemmann, Volker Armin"
 
Default Ati or Nvida

On Dienstag, 17. Juni 2008, Platoali wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 8:48 PM, Hemmann, Volker Armin
>
> <volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > if you want to make a political statement: buy ATI
> >
> > if you want to use the card with almost no problems and good performance:
> > buy nvidia.
> >
> > Yes, ATI has released docu. Yes, everybody is working on the drivers. But
> > the open ones only do 2d so far and the closed ones are horrible.
>
> Does this mean that AMD have not released 3d parts of the drivers? Do
> they plan to release the 3d parts?

they haven't released a 'driver'. So they can't release '3d parts' of it.

They released all the necessary documentation and they are working with Novell
to create open drivers (there are two projects to create open ati drivers -
to increase the mess).

The closed source frglx drivers are still closed source. They are still the
only option to get working 3d and they still suck ass.
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Old 06-17-2008, 06:12 PM
James
 
Default Ati or Nvida

Platoali <platoali <at> gmail.com> writes:


> Although all tests have been run on windows. It seems that Ati have
> better hardware and it is also going to be more open source friendly
> in near future. I'm planning to use this workstation for 3 or 4 years
> or even more. So I'm thinking to risk a little and bet on AMD , and
> hope that they deserve my hard earned money. but I'm not sure yet. I
> need to do a little more search about AMD plans, and current
> development status of ATI driver.

One thing I'd like to point out, from what I've read. Many people think that
AMD/ATI can just release sources. Most of the time, due to the fact that other
companies license software and resell their(ati) hardware designs, so AMD/ATI
is legally bound not to release those sources directly. So that is why they
publish documentation (whenever possible) about the specifics of the
graphics hardware.

I for one, as a firmware engineer, believe that AMD/ATI have turned a
"significant corner" in their attitude and subsequent plans to position
their company to be very attractive to the open source community. I also
believe that it make take some more months to see the fruit of these efforts
and some years for this fruit to become widespread. (Things always take
a while with technology and lawyers). But, these are my opinions, not, in
any way actually connect to AMD/ATI.


(over simplified VLSI perspective):
There is something larger at work here, imho. That is that the GPU
/cellprocessor /microprocessor are merging onto the same substrate,
for a variety of reasons. The GPU/Cell is a wonderfully powerful processor
for searching and sorting and parallel algorithms of all sorts. As such
many technical efforts are underway to utilize the GPU/Cell processor
as a companion to the CPU. At some point, all of the proprietary-ness
of GPU/Cell processor will become obsolete, and Intel is at a particular
"sweet spot" since they are the commander of the smallest (fastest) physics
at this point in time.

In a few years the entire territorial madness that surrounds
GPU/Cell processors may just be a bad memory. Hard to predict,
but, my money is on AMD/ATI.

http://lwn.net/Articles/260676/

Here's an interesting link.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=fosdem_08_bridgman&num= 1

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Old 06-17-2008, 06:16 PM
Stroller
 
Default Ati or Nvida

On 17 Jun 2008, at 17:18, Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote:

...
if you want to make a political statement: buy ATI

if you want to use the card with almost no problems and good
performance: buy

nvidia.


This comparison seems to rather neglect Intel.

Sure, they come a third place in pure performance terms, but
performance means nothing if you can't take advantage of it. Intel
have been releasing open-source drivers for their GPUs for some time
now - 2 or 3 years? They maintain them and contribute to other OSS
projects like X.org.


IMO Intel deserve our thanks for this for more than ATi or nVidia,
and since I tend to buy hardware with the intent of still being able
to use it in 5 years' time, their graphics chipsets are also a
practical choice for me, too.


Stroller.

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Old 06-17-2008, 06:38 PM
Grant Edwards
 
Default Ati or Nvida

On 2008-06-17, Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
>
> On 17 Jun 2008, at 17:18, Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote:
>> ...
>> if you want to make a political statement: buy ATI
>>
>> if you want to use the card with almost no problems and good
>> performance: buy
>> nvidia.
>
> This comparison seems to rather neglect Intel.

Imagine that. What was requested was a comparison of ATI and
nVidia.

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! I think my career
at is ruined!
visi.com

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Old 06-17-2008, 06:45 PM
"Hemmann, Volker Armin"
 
Default Ati or Nvida

On Dienstag, 17. Juni 2008, Stroller wrote:
> On 17 Jun 2008, at 17:18, Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote:
> > ...
> > if you want to make a political statement: buy ATI
> >
> > if you want to use the card with almost no problems and good
> > performance: buy
> > nvidia.
>
> This comparison seems to rather neglect Intel.

because Intel does not produce amd chipsets.


> IMO Intel deserve our thanks for this for more than ATi or nVidia,

and they deserve damnation for their monopolistic tactics, their artificially
high prices, their copying of amd after bashing them for years.

Did you know that amd worked closely with linux developers when they developed
the amd64 plattform?
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Old 06-17-2008, 06:51 PM
pk
 
Default Ati or Nvida

Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote:

Yes, ATI has released docu. Yes, everybody is working on the drivers. But the
open ones only do 2d so far and the closed ones are horrible.


I have had quite a few ATI cards (all radeon class) and have been using
fglrx for almost as long as it has been out and have had very little
problems. I have only had one Nvidia card though (which I gave up on a
long time ago due to problems with the drivers). So everything's not
"peachy" in Nvidia-land... All from my experience and point of view, of
course.


Regarding the open source drivers (of which I'm quite excited about):
The open ones do 3D and have done so for quite a while (r2/3/400). R500
has recently been added (albeit alpha quality) and r600 is on it's way.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ati_r500_3d&num=1
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ati_r500_gaming&num=1
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NjUwNw

For the inquisitive, documentation is here:
http://developer.amd.com/DOCUMENTATION/GUIDES/Pages/default.aspx

I plan to use an open driver (haven't decided between radeon and
radeonhd) when r600 support has stabilised...


Best regards / MfG

Peter K
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Old 06-17-2008, 07:18 PM
James
 
Default Ati or Nvida

Hemmann, Volker Armin <volker.armin.hemmann <at> tu-clausthal.de> writes:


> > This comparison seems to rather neglect Intel.

> because Intel does not produce amd chipsets.

> > IMO Intel deserve our thanks for this for more than ATi or nVidia,

> and they deserve damnation for their monopolistic tactics, their artificially
> high prices, their copying of amd after bashing them for years.

First, I did say something good about Intel. Look at my second post under
"VLSI perspective". Intel is winning the pure physics battle and could easily
put a gpGPU with a x86 (or compatible) chipset on a single substrate, and work
closely with the open source community to do the right thing. The problem
with Intel, is the founders have similar attitudes as the Son of Satan
(aka Bill Gates).....

Intel only responds to the open source community when it gets it's A_ _ kicked
in by AMD. (There is quite a lot of history here). Now that INTEL is
the current champion of the physics wars, the corporate idiots that run
Intel, will only marginally move to open source, until AMD heals up
financially. This is historically recurring theme (fact).


FAST FORWARD a few years.....

gpGPU is ubiquitous and everywhere easily implemented (or at least in
my dreams). The average 3D video game on any platform uses less than
10% of the gpGPU/processor. It will not matter who has more patents
in Stream/Cell/gpGPU court, because all hardware will exceed what the
majority of users need or want (from a gaming or work perspective).

The DNA researchers, spoofs that track minutia about the planet's inhabitants,
etc, etc will care. But the average technoid making a living whilst playing
video games that look very real, will only care about one thing.

Who has been the nicest and friendliest to the opensource community?

It's actually a dame shame, for me as an American, with Christian tendencies.
Intel nor microsuck lead where I want to follow. Corporations elsewhere
in the world attract me more (and you wonder why our great nation
is hated by many in the world?). I always spend my money
on systems where the corporate leaderships is the most appealing
(never an easy decision and not recommend to others as it is painful).

I spend my money on AMD/ATI.


Like I said in the beginning, when we began this thread,
"All religious questions, imho"


> Did you know that amd worked closely with linux developers when they developed
> the amd64 plattform?

Now you are teasing me. I thought you recommended Nvidia? Oh, I just realized,
you took my advise and chose the best (easiest) contemporary path. Good
choice, as I cannot argue (effectively) against Nvidia. It's a principled
thing, for me.

cheers and seeya!


hth,

James


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Old 06-17-2008, 08:03 PM
"Hemmann, Volker Armin"
 
Default Ati or Nvida

On Dienstag, 17. Juni 2008, James wrote:
> Hemmann, Volker Armin <volker.armin.hemmann <at> tu-clausthal.de> writes:
> > > This comparison seems to rather neglect Intel.
> >
> > because Intel does not produce amd chipsets.
> >
> > > IMO Intel deserve our thanks for this for more than ATi or nVidia,
> >
> > and they deserve damnation for their monopolistic tactics, their
> > artificially high prices, their copying of amd after bashing them for
> > years.
>
> First, I did say something good about Intel. Look at my second post under
> "VLSI perspective". Intel is winning the pure physics battle and could
> easily put a gpGPU with a x86 (or compatible) chipset on a single
> substrate, and work closely with the open source community to do the right
> thing. The problem with Intel, is the founders have similar attitudes as
> the Son of Satan (aka Bill Gates).....
>
> Intel only responds to the open source community when it gets it's A_ _
> kicked in by AMD. (There is quite a lot of history here). Now that INTEL is
> the current champion of the physics wars, the corporate idiots that run
> Intel, will only marginally move to open source, until AMD heals up
> financially. This is historically recurring theme (fact).
>
>
> FAST FORWARD a few years.....
>
> gpGPU is ubiquitous and everywhere easily implemented (or at least in
> my dreams). The average 3D video game on any platform uses less than
> 10% of the gpGPU/processor. It will not matter who has more patents
> in Stream/Cell/gpGPU court, because all hardware will exceed what the
> majority of users need or want (from a gaming or work perspective).
>
> The DNA researchers, spoofs that track minutia about the planet's
> inhabitants, etc, etc will care. But the average technoid making a living
> whilst playing video games that look very real, will only care about one
> thing.
>
> Who has been the nicest and friendliest to the opensource community?
>
> It's actually a dame shame, for me as an American, with Christian
> tendencies. Intel nor microsuck lead where I want to follow. Corporations
> elsewhere in the world attract me more (and you wonder why our great nation
> is hated by many in the world?). I always spend my money
> on systems where the corporate leaderships is the most appealing
> (never an easy decision and not recommend to others as it is painful).
>
> I spend my money on AMD/ATI.
>
>
> Like I said in the beginning, when we began this thread,
> "All religious questions, imho"
>
> > Did you know that amd worked closely with linux developers when they
> > developed the amd64 plattform?
>
> Now you are teasing me. I thought you recommended Nvidia? Oh, I just
> realized, you took my advise and chose the best (easiest) contemporary
> path. Good choice, as I cannot argue (effectively) against Nvidia. It's a
> principled thing, for me.

cpu from amd, graphics from nvidia. chipset from the one who has the least
bugs
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:48 PM
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Default Ati or Nvida

Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> a écrit:

> Definitely nVidia. Over the past few years I've had a 3-4 of
> each (ATI and nVidia).

But now, it's not the same context. ATI specs are known and open source
drivers coming. It's definitely different of the "past few years".

--
Nicolas Sebrecht

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