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Old 06-10-2008, 02:52 PM
Grant
 
Default esound

I'm trying to remove all digital alteration of the sound on my music
server before it hits the USB DAC. I have no jack, no pulseaudio, and
I think I should remove esound. There doesn't seem to be an
/etc/init.d script for it though. I've removed it from my USE flags,
and un-emerged it, but now I'm curious. Has it been running on the
system even without an /etc/init.d script?

- Grant
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Old 06-10-2008, 05:13 PM
Enrico Weigelt
 
Default esound

* Grant <emailgrant@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm trying to remove all digital alteration of the sound on my
> music server before it hits the USB DAC. I have no jack, no
> pulseaudio, and I think I should remove esound. There doesn't
> seem to be an /etc/init.d script for it though.

At my site it's called /etc/init.d/esound.
Perhaps you'd someday removed it accidently ?

> I've removed it from my USE flags, and un-emerged it, but now
> I'm curious.

That useflag (IMHO) only affects other applications which might
be able to feed their audio to esd. So if you disable this useflag
(and dont forget to rebuild ;-p), the app won't try to connect
to esd anymore. So, if nobody uses esd, you can remove it.

BTW: (OT) I'm currently writing an tiny and network agnostic
(9P based) audio server which should be capable of being the
only application interface (making app-internal driver layers
obsolete) and optionally can support other protocols (eg. esound).
If anyone's interested in it, just let me know


cu
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
Enrico Weigelt == metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce:
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Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions:
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Old 06-10-2008, 07:29 PM
Grant
 
Default esound

>> I'm trying to remove all digital alteration of the sound on my
>> music server before it hits the USB DAC. I have no jack, no
>> pulseaudio, and I think I should remove esound. There doesn't
>> seem to be an /etc/init.d script for it though.
>
> At my site it's called /etc/init.d/esound.
> Perhaps you'd someday removed it accidently ?
>
>> I've removed it from my USE flags, and un-emerged it, but now
>> I'm curious.
>
> That useflag (IMHO) only affects other applications which might
> be able to feed their audio to esd. So if you disable this useflag
> (and dont forget to rebuild ;-p), the app won't try to connect
> to esd anymore. So, if nobody uses esd, you can remove it.

I see it now. Thanks a lot.

- Grant

> BTW: (OT) I'm currently writing an tiny and network agnostic
> (9P based) audio server which should be capable of being the
> only application interface (making app-internal driver layers
> obsolete) and optionally can support other protocols (eg. esound).
> If anyone's interested in it, just let me know
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Old 06-16-2008, 05:25 AM
Martin Pitt
 
Default esound

Frans Pop [2008-06-15 20:39 +0200]:
> Also, the package has had uploads of new upstream versions to Ubuntu
> without getting similar uploads in Debian, but even there not by its
> Debian maintainer who AFAIK is an Canonical employee.

esound should *so much* die completely. It has very poor sound quality
(huge A/V desync when playing videos, etc.), very poor code quality
(it causes complete desktop locks very often, due to not being thread
safe), and is abandoned upstream. At least in Ubuntu nobody likes it,
and nobody wants to touch it, and we have not installed it by default
since 6.06 or even earlier. Apparently in Debian the amount of esound
love from the DDs is very similar. :-)

The only thing I know which really still needs the esound interface is
libgnome, for the sound events. However, Pulseaudio has a
compatibility layer which provides full esound emulation
(pulseaudio-esound-compat), without all the shortcomings of esd.

If you don't care about sound events, then IMHO you are much better
off with not having any sound server at all. At least in my personal
experience, using ALSA directly (which has had dmix enabled by default
for years) gives much better results.

For the record, Ryan Murray isn't a Canonical employee. Also, the last
upstream update was done by a community member who screwed it up
pretty severely (he dropped all the Debian and Ubuntu patches).
However, since nobody cares, we never fixed that. So please don't use
the Ubuntu package as a basis for a Debian upload.

Martin

--
Martin Pitt | http://www.piware.de
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org)
 
Old 06-17-2008, 09:12 AM
Klaus Ethgen
 
Default esound

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

Am Mo den 16. Jun 2008 um 6:25 schrieb Martin Pitt:
> esound should *so much* die completely. It has very poor sound quality

I cannot prove that. Its sound quality is much better than the one of
ALSA direct. (Well esd on top of OSS. It is not that good than with OSS
direct but it is ok.)

> (huge A/V desync when playing videos, etc.),

I just see that issues when using ALSA. So please drop ALSA and not ESD.

> very poor code quality

That might be. But that's a problem of many gnome applications.

> The only thing I know which really still needs the esound interface is
> libgnome, for the sound events.

There are other needs.
- - The sound hardware do only support one bitrate and you need something
between to scale the bitrate.
- - You want to have sound mixing and do not want to use ARTS (Which is
mud).

> At least in my personal experience, using ALSA directly (which has had
> dmix enabled by default for years) gives much better results.

My experience is complete opposite. ALSA is that kind of buggy. If you
move the mouse while using sound on ALSA you hear cracks and sound
disorders. Also they halfly translate the config files!!! And then I was
not able to use it long time as it makes my systems complete instable
and it ops all time. (Tested on kernel 2.4.*, 2.6.* and also with debian
kernels or vanilla. And on all distros, Stable, Unstable or testing.)

So please stop removing stuff, which is much better than the stuff which
is recommended.

Regards
Klaus Ethgen
- --
Klaus Ethgen http://www.ethgen.de/
pub 2048R/D1A4EDE5 2000-02-26 Klaus Ethgen <Klaus@Ethgen.de>
Fingerprint: D7 67 71 C4 99 A6 D4 FE EA 40 30 57 3C 88 26 2B
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Old 06-17-2008, 10:50 AM
Martin Pitt
 
Default esound

Hi Klaus,

Klaus Ethgen [2008-06-17 10:12 +0100]:
> I cannot prove that. Its sound quality is much better than the one of
> ALSA direct. (Well esd on top of OSS. It is not that good than with OSS
> direct but it is ok.)

Hm, that rather sounds like for your card the OSS driver is much
better than the ALSA one. But OSS/ALSA both live below the application
level (where esound/pulseaudio/arts reside).

> > (huge A/V desync when playing videos, etc.),
>
> I just see that issues when using ALSA. So please drop ALSA and not ESD.

On the vast majority of systems out there, esound plays through ALSA.
The kernel only has very few OSS-only drivers left, and gradually
shifts towards ALSA only.

Since ALSA is the kernel ABI (of course it has userspace libraries,
too), and esound is the user session daemon, it's not really an
'either or' here. The alternative to esound is not really ALSA, but
rather pulseaudio.

> > The only thing I know which really still needs the esound interface is
> > libgnome, for the sound events.
>
> There are other needs.
> - The sound hardware do only support one bitrate and you need something
> between to scale the bitrate.
> - You want to have sound mixing and do not want to use ARTS (Which is
> mud).

Then IMHO you should use Pulseaudio nowadays. However, gstreamer and
other infrastructure never really made bitrate/frequency conversion an
issue with direct ALSA output. YMMV.

> > At least in my personal experience, using ALSA directly (which has had
> > dmix enabled by default for years) gives much better results.
>
> My experience is complete opposite. ALSA is that kind of buggy. If you
> move the mouse while using sound on ALSA you hear cracks and sound
> disorders. Also they halfly translate the config files!!! And then I was
> not able to use it long time as it makes my systems complete instable
> and it ops all time. (Tested on kernel 2.4.*, 2.6.* and also with debian
> kernels or vanilla. And on all distros, Stable, Unstable or testing.)

That's interesting indeed! So you avoid that by using an OSS driver
instead of the ALSA one? I can really not imagine how esound on top of
a broken ALSA driver would sound better than just using the ALSA
output directly?

Thanks,

Martin

--
Martin Pitt | http://www.piware.de
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org)
 
Old 06-17-2008, 01:06 PM
Klaus Ethgen
 
Default esound

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Dear Martin,

Am Di den 17. Jun 2008 um 11:50 schrieb Martin Pitt:
> Klaus Ethgen [2008-06-17 10:12 +0100]:
> > I cannot prove that. Its sound quality is much better than the one of
> > ALSA direct. (Well esd on top of OSS. It is not that good than with OSS
> > direct but it is ok.)
>
> Hm, that rather sounds like for your card the OSS driver is much
> better than the ALSA one. But OSS/ALSA both live below the application
> level (where esound/pulseaudio/arts reside).

Well, yes.

> > I just see that issues when using ALSA. So please drop ALSA and not ESD.
>
> On the vast majority of systems out there, esound plays through ALSA.
> The kernel only has very few OSS-only drivers left, and gradually
> shifts towards ALSA only.
>
> Since ALSA is the kernel ABI (of course it has userspace libraries,
> too), and esound is the user session daemon, it's not really an
> 'either or' here.

Sorry that I forgot the sarcasms tags. I know that they are different
levels.
> The alternative to esound is not really ALSA, but rather pulseaudio.

Is pulsaudio supported by applications like wine for example? Do
pulsaudio work on top of OSS?

> > > At least in my personal experience, using ALSA directly (which has had
> > > dmix enabled by default for years) gives much better results.
> >
> > My experience is complete opposite. ALSA is that kind of buggy. If you
> > move the mouse while using sound on ALSA you hear cracks and sound
> > disorders. Also they halfly translate the config files!!! And then I was
> > not able to use it long time as it makes my systems complete instable
> > and it ops all time. (Tested on kernel 2.4.*, 2.6.* and also with debian
> > kernels or vanilla. And on all distros, Stable, Unstable or testing.)
>
> That's interesting indeed! So you avoid that by using an OSS driver
> instead of the ALSA one?

Yes.

> I can really not imagine how esound on top of a broken ALSA driver
> would sound better than just using the ALSA output directly?

Oh, that was a misunderstanding. I mean ESD on top of OSS works well.

You are true, a sound daemon and the hardware support are different.
ALSA is a bit more than only the hardware abstraction then also some
library stuff which share some functionality of ESD.

So:
OSS: Works well.
OSS<-ESD: Works well too.
ALSA: The problems above.
ALSA<-ESD: I never really tested.

Regards
Klaus
- --
Klaus Ethgen http://www.ethgen.de/
pub 2048R/D1A4EDE5 2000-02-26 Klaus Ethgen <Klaus@Ethgen.de>
Fingerprint: D7 67 71 C4 99 A6 D4 FE EA 40 30 57 3C 88 26 2B
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Old 06-17-2008, 02:21 PM
Loc Minier
 
Default esound

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008, Martin Pitt wrote:
> That's interesting indeed! So you avoid that by using an OSS driver
> instead of the ALSA one? I can really not imagine how esound on top of
> a broken ALSA driver would sound better than just using the ALSA
> output directly?

It might normalize which sampling rate / sample width is used

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Old 06-17-2008, 02:25 PM
Martin Pitt
 
Default esound

Klaus Ethgen [2008-06-17 14:06 +0100]:
> > The alternative to esound is not really ALSA, but rather pulseaudio.
>
> Is pulsaudio supported by applications like wine for example? Do
> pulsaudio work on top of OSS?

pulseaudio provides an esound ABI compatibility layer, thus it's a
drop-in replacement. It also provides OSS and ALSA emulation for
legacy applications; of course there will still be problems left with
those, it can never be 100% transparent (especially not for OSS, which
does not have a library API, but is so close to the metal).

> OSS: Works well.
> OSS<-ESD: Works well too.

Ubuntu got a lot of bug reports about random desktop crashes/deadlocks
with esound, that's why I learned to hate it so much (apart from the
totally ridiculous video A/V desync).

> ALSA: The problems above.
> ALSA<-ESD: I never really tested.

Thanks for your insights!

Martin

--
Martin Pitt | http://www.piware.de
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org)
 
Old 06-17-2008, 03:44 PM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default esound

Le mardi 17 juin 2008 14:06 +0100, Klaus Ethgen a crit :
> OSS: Works well.
> OSS<-ESD: Works well too.
> ALSA: The problems above.
> ALSA<-ESD: I never really tested.

Last time I checked, libesd-alsa0 was still completely unusable (well,
except for some weird kind of sound-based torture).

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