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Old 02-04-2008, 08:22 PM
Chris Gianelloni
 
Default Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 22:20 +0100, Peter Weber wrote:
> Gentoo should have again an Universal-CD again, because:

No. Never. Quit suggesting we resurrect this low-quality piece of
crap. We will never bring this back. Ever. It caused too many issues
and was more trouble than it was worth.

> * Support for network/networkless-installation on one release-media

Same for LiveCD...

> * More flexibility as with Minimal-CD and LiveCD

Bull. The LiveCD has *way* more packages and has a much fuller
environment. The LiveCD is a superset of the Minimal/Universal package
set.

> * Compared with LiveCD the footprint is generally small (necessary
> hardware, size of image)

Bull. The Universal CD was nearly always a full 700MB.

> * Offers the classic full "Shell-Installation" who is loved by the
> gentoo-community (no voodoo-scripts, included stage3 and sources for the
> most important packages like vanilla-sources and bootloaders)

Yes, because everybody out there is too dumb to start the LiveCD with
"nox" or simply switch to a console of their choosing.

> * Could also offer a Ncurses-Installer and requires only some MB of
> space on the disk (without X11, Gnome, OpenOffice)

We *do* already do this.

> * One consistent-installation way for all platforms (only x86/x86_64
> doesn't offer it currently)

That is because we're moving to the Installer *from* the Universal.

> * Debian and Ubuntu (with its alternate-cd) offers currently more
> flexible solutions than Gentoo! Hey, who is here the meta-distribution?

Ahh, yes. Time for the accusations without any backing!

Got any other completely unproven statement to make? Maybe users are
leaving Gentoo for Ubuntu because Gentoo has a graphical installer now?
How about that the Universal CD is being removed secretly from the
mirrors because Daniel Robbins owns the trademark on the words
"Universal CD" and won't sell it/license it to the Gentoo
Foundation? ;]

> * There are currently unoffical Universal-CD avaiable, we don't need
> much work to prepare: http://download.libexec.de/ting/2007.0/

...and?

How cares? Anyone can do this all they want. What Release Engineering
*doesn't* have to do is support it. After all, that's the entire point
of dropping them in the first place.

> Thanks to dertobi for the great work ;-)
> Maybe he can support you with necessary and up-to-date catalyst files.

Umm... 's/minimal/universal/' *.spec... ;]

> Please don't put this suggestion to your trash can, because you
> personally don't need or want it. The Univeral-CD is and was always a
> great installation-media, and it was simple.

Well, if you don't want your suggestion to go to the trash, please try
to come up with something *original* that hasn't already been shot down
100 times.

Thanks,

--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer
--
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 02-04-2008, 08:47 PM
Peter Weber
 
Default Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

> The LiveDVD includes stages and a snapshot.

Interesting and good, but the LiveDVD is, let us say the truth -
overkill.

A other good solution would be merging Universal and Minimal-CD
togehter, so we offer only a smaller Universal-CD (about 200-400 MB) and
a complete LiveCD (about 700 MB).

> * Support for network/networkless-installation on one release-media

> The LiveCD does this.

No. Only the Installer does this! This is not possible via shell,
because the users have no access to the voodoo-scripts.

> Why can't you open a terminal and install? I know I've done it many
times from
the LiveCD.

Why nobody removes Gnome, Open-Office from the LiveCD and replace it by
a true Stage3? It would be also nice, not be forced always switch of the
automatic start of the howl X11-Crap.
Default could be the plain shell, as ever, and a message who says the
user he could type "installer" (for ncurses-installer) and
"gui-installer" (for X11 with Installer). Gentoo is about choices ;-)


Best Wishes
Peter








On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 15:28 -0600, Andrew Gaffney wrote:
> Randall D. Wald wrote:
> > I second this, in particular the part about including stage3 on the CD;
> > I'm always annoyed when, after downloading and burning the LiveCD, I
> > need to download the stage3, possibly from a laptop without working
> > wireless.
>
> The LiveDVD includes stages and a snapshot.
>
> --
> Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
> Gentoo Linux Developer Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator

--
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 02-04-2008, 09:03 PM
Peter Weber
 
Default Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 22:49 +0100, Markus Hauschild wrote:
> On Feb 4, 2008 10:47 PM, Peter Weber <peterle@hottemptation.org>
> wrote:
> > > The LiveDVD includes stages and a snapshot.
> >
> > Interesting and good, but the LiveDVD is, let us say the truth -
> > overkill.
> >
> > A other good solution would be merging Universal and Minimal-CD
> > togehter, so we offer only a smaller Universal-CD (about 200-400 MB)
> and
> > a complete LiveCD (about 700 MB).
>
> I'd love a minimal + stage3 + portage-snapshot + stuff you really need
> (kernel sources, grub, maybe a syslogger)
> But I guess I'd have to make that one myself then (and then its not
> worth the effort)
>
> --
>
> Cheers, Markus

I hope dertobi will release a new Universal-CD after 2008.0, I already
expected Gianelloni's reaction (W00T less than 180 seconds!!!!!!!!!!).




Most of Gianelloni's answers are technical wrong, or not proof-en.
Maybe he has not enough time to think about his answers *gg*

"bull"...nice style of conversation





--
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 02-04-2008, 09:04 PM
Peter Weber
 
Default Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 15:58 -0600, Andrew Gaffney wrote:
> That doesn't even make sense. A universal CD is nothing but a minimal plus some
> stuff. You can't merge them together, unless you're talking about getting rid of
> the minimal all together, and then that's even dumber.
>
> --
> Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
> Gentoo Linux Developer Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator

And why is dumber, because it need more diskspace?


--
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 02-04-2008, 09:23 PM
Peter Weber
 
Default Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

> Anyone gave this any thought? There are still a LOT of dial-up users
> out here. People seem to forget that, especially the website with all
> the huge pages. My Space comes to mind on that.

Even users with high-speed connections want to stay independent and
free, relying on a network-connection is unsafe.

I want my backup of my OS in my hand and not on a web-server.
But I also prefer web-installation because I got immediately up-to-date
files.





Relying on a network-connection for installation is like relying on the
Windows-Activation and Windows live-update. If you need it, you can be
sure, that it will NOT work! Maybe they deny the access, delete the all
the files through a accident, or some stupid captain cut off your
backbone...*haha*

--
gentoo-releng@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 02-04-2008, 09:25 PM
Peter Weber
 
Default Call for feature requests for 2008.0 - Universal-CD

Thanks for your answer. I respect this fully!
I just thought that this was a good chance for starting a discussion.




On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 16:18 -0600, Brent Baude wrote:
> Peter and company,
>
> It is important for you to understand that we, releng, are in the
> process of 2008.0 right now. As such, it probably is not fair to
> knowingly push our buttons given that we have entered the execution
> phase of doing this work now. Gentoo folks, users and devs alike, felt
> it was important to focus on getting 2008 out and in quick order. This
> is where our time investment should be going. The call for features is
> closed and our direction is clear. We know what we are going to build
> and deliver.
>
> I encourage you to find a way to constructively spool your input; and it
> should probably be aimed at post-2008.0. This rag-tag releng team is
> stressed to its limits to meet deadlines. If you feel so strongly about
> Gentoo and want to advocate for users, please join and begin to
> contribute to that extent. This is how the current team members got
> started.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Scanned with Copfilter Version 0.84beta3a (ProxSMTP 1.6)
> AntiVirus: ClamAV 0.91.2/5686 - Mon Feb 4 15:13:58 2008
> by Markus Madlener @ http://www.copfilter.org

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