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Old 07-24-2013, 08:59 PM
Sven Vermeulen
 
Default Wikification of non-handbook guides/articles

Hi guys

If you're following commits, you'll notice that I'm in the process of moving
documents from the www.gentoo.org/doc/en location to the Gentoo wiki.
Currently, I'm basing myself on the bugs we have open for the documents that
haven't been touched in a while, or that are for guides that aren't fully
maintained.

Once that is done, I will move the guides that haven't been touched in a
while as well (starting last edit 2003, then 2004, etc.) and those that I am
the main author for (as I'll be doing my edits in the Gentoo wiki).

The translation support in the Gentoo Wiki is working quite well imo
(correct me if I'm wrong) as it supports translations almost simultaneously
by multiple translators. Also, the process for editing is "now" rather than
having people become potential recruitees first.

During the majority of documentation moves, I will probably update the main
site link from the Gentoo site (towards /doc/en/list.xml) towards a page (or
category) that presents all documents on the wiki that are marked as
translatable. Personally, I think only those documents that are well
reviewed and edited should be marked as translatable, which is why I haven't
gone through the entire wiki site marking all articles as translatable.

I explicitly didn't ask for a way for locking the pages (to disable "sudden"
destruction of the page) as I'm watching all pages that I add, and haven't
noticed any wrong edits - on the contrary. Guides such as the nvidia guide
(now at wiki/NVidia/nvidia-drivers) have seen quiet a few good edits.
However, know that it *is* possible (if I'm not mistaken, Project: namespace
documents will only be editable by the project members).

These moves should allow us to get good quality documentation again (and
many contributions) while we focus on the Gentoo Handbook. As it turns out,
there are quite a few bugs open for the handbooks that need to be looked at
(such as SSD documentation integration, specific networking updates, UEFI
support and more).

Wkr,
Sven Vermeulen
 
Old 07-25-2013, 03:48 AM
"Paweł Hajdan, Jr."
 
Default Wikification of non-handbook guides/articles

On 7/24/13 1:59 PM, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> I explicitly didn't ask for a way for locking the pages (to disable "sudden"
> destruction of the page) as I'm watching all pages that I add, and haven't
> noticed any wrong edits - on the contrary. Guides such as the nvidia guide
> (now at wiki/NVidia/nvidia-drivers) have seen quiet a few good edits.
> However, know that it *is* possible (if I'm not mistaken, Project: namespace
> documents will only be editable by the project members).
>
> These moves should allow us to get good quality documentation again (and
> many contributions) while we focus on the Gentoo Handbook. As it turns out,
> there are quite a few bugs open for the handbooks that need to be looked at
> (such as SSD documentation integration, specific networking updates, UEFI
> support and more).

Sounds great, thank you for working on this!

Paweł
 
Old 07-25-2013, 05:05 AM
Vladimir Romanov
 
Default Wikification of non-handbook guides/articles

> The translation support in the Gentoo Wiki is working quite well imo
> (correct me if I'm wrong)

I think you're wrong. No, it is good that we have a translations in wiki now, it's great. But it's system...


For example, how can i view ALL articles in wiki to select, which to translate? How can i view, which articles ARE translated for my particular language? How can i view all articles, translated by me, but were changed in English (<100% of translations) or in Russian (some other guy changed it).


Looking into the future, for example, when i translate 500 articles, and (for example) total number of articles is 800. I want to translate something more. I need to move back and forth to look, if i catch one of 300, which are not translated? May be one of this 500 is updated, but i am not aware of it. May be today 801 article is created (yes, i can view recent updates, but if it is not recent, a month ago?)


And last - now every sentence translating is adding an entry in "recent updates". Appx 20-30 entries for one article translating. I think, it creates huge impact on Database Perfomance and Size



2013/7/25 "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." <phajdan.jr@gentoo.org>

On 7/24/13 1:59 PM, Sven Vermeulen wrote:

> I explicitly didn't ask for a way for locking the pages (to disable "sudden"

> destruction of the page) as I'm watching all pages that I add, and haven't

> noticed any wrong edits - on the contrary. Guides such as the nvidia guide

> (now at wiki/NVidia/nvidia-drivers) have seen quiet a few good edits.

> However, know that it *is* possible (if I'm not mistaken, Project: namespace

> documents will only be editable by the project members).

>

> These moves should allow us to get good quality documentation again (and

> many contributions) while we focus on the Gentoo Handbook. As it turns out,

> there are quite a few bugs open for the handbooks that need to be looked at

> (such as SSD documentation integration, specific networking updates, UEFI

> support and more).



Sounds great, thank you for working on this!



Paweł
 
Old 07-25-2013, 05:45 AM
Sven Vermeulen
 
Default Wikification of non-handbook guides/articles

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:05:27AM +0500, Vladimir Romanov wrote:
> For example, how can i view ALL articles in wiki to select, which to
> translate? How can i view, which articles ARE translated for my particular
> language? How can i view all articles, translated by me, but were changed
> in English (<100% of translations) or in Russian (some other guy changed
> it).

Try
https://wiki.gentoo.org/index.php?title=Special:LanguageStats&language=ru
(change language=ru to whatever language code you want to see). This page
shows all translatable pages together with how far they are translated for
your language.

I don't think you can see when someone else has updates the translation -
I would assume translation updates are to improve them. But you can of
course always watch your translations so that you can see the changes on
your watch page.

> Looking into the future, for example, when i translate 500 articles, and
> (for example) total number of articles is 800. I want to translate
> something more. I need to move back and forth to look, if i catch one of
> 300, which are not translated? May be one of this 500 is updated, but i am
> not aware of it. May be today 801 article is created (yes, i can view
> recent updates, but if it is not recent, a month ago?)

The language statistics page should help with that.

> And last - now every sentence translating is adding an entry in "recent
> updates". Appx 20-30 entries for one article translating. I think, it
> creates huge impact on Database Perfomance and Size

That's something for the wiki guys - considering the translation extension
has been used for much larger databases than ours, I think this will not be
a problem. When it does, we have enough DBAs and mediawiki
support/developers to help us out.

Wkr,
Sven Vermeulen
 
Old 07-25-2013, 07:06 AM
Vladimir Romanov
 
Default Wikification of non-handbook guides/articles

> The language statistics page should help with that.

Well, with this page i can see, what is 'translateable', but not yet translated by me. How then i can view all UNtranslated pages to request them?
 
Old 07-25-2013, 08:50 AM
Sven Vermeulen
 
Default Wikification of non-handbook guides/articles

Vladimir Romanov <blueboar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The language statistics page should help with that.
>
>Well, with this page i can see, what is 'translateable', but not yet
>translated by me. How then i can view all UNtranslated pages to request
>them?

Use Special:WithoutInterwiki.

But only request translation of the page if it is well written, accurate and complete. The translatable status is a good status for having quality assured documents.
--
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
 
Old 07-25-2013, 08:53 AM
Vladimir Romanov
 
Default Wikification of non-handbook guides/articles

Thanks for your answers. Now i will append to crowd of happy-with-wiki people . Will work on translating then.


2013/7/25 Sven Vermeulen <swift@gentoo.org>





Vladimir Romanov <blueboar2@gmail.com> wrote:

>> The language statistics page should help with that.

>

>Well, with this page i can see, what is 'translateable', but not yet

>translated by me. How then i can view all UNtranslated pages to request

>them?



Use Special:WithoutInterwiki.



But only request translation of the page if it is well written, accurate and complete. The translatable status is a good status for having quality assured documents.

--

Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
 
Old 07-25-2013, 08:07 PM
Sven Vermeulen
 
Default Wikification of non-handbook guides/articles

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 08:59:45PM +0000, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> The translation support in the Gentoo Wiki is working quite well imo
> (correct me if I'm wrong) as it supports translations almost simultaneously
> by multiple translators. Also, the process for editing is "now" rather than
> having people become potential recruitees first.

I got a few mails about translation support questions and behavior. Although
I'm not an expert (I might just have one day more experience than you guys
I'll summarize it here because I think it can help others as well.

Important: I'm no expert, hardly experienced. It is based on observations.

Editing documents
=================

One question was about how to suggest changes without making them.

Well, if you are feeling quite confident that the change you suggest is the
correct one, just do it. Within the wiki, we can revert changes if they are
incorrect, and people that feel responsible for an article will be watching
it anyway (cfr the "Watch" link at the top right) so that won't be a
problem.

But if you think the change is too intrusive and you don't know enough, use
the Talk page (or "Discussion"). I'm not certain that Talk pages are
automatically watched if the main document is (a quick scan does show that
I'm following Talk pages as well, but that might be coincidence) but they
should.

Inside the Talk page, you can use a discussion box like so:

#v+
{{InfoBox stack
|{{InfoBox talk open}}
}}
#v-

This will mark your question as still open (not fully answered yet).

Wiki infrastructure questions
=============================

See the main page, check out the #gentoo-wiki IRC channel and ask your
question there. You can also use the wiki@gentoo.org mail address, or the
Suggestions page.

Split blocks in translations
============================

When mediawiki changes a document to make it eligible for translations, it
will automatically add in <!-- T:### --> sections. Sometimes these sections
are in the middle of a block, like so:

<!-- T:100 -->
{{Cmd|foobar|output=<pre>
# This is some output

<!-- T:101 -->
# Some more output
</pre>
}}

For translators, this will give two blocks that are not "well formed".
Mediawiki does not really care that they are not well formed, but you will
see a warning about it.

There are two ways to deal with this:
- ignore the warning and continue, mediawiki will accept your changes
- edit the main document

To edit it, *do not* move <!-- T:### --> stuff. Mediawiki will ignore it,
change it back or do weird things with it. Instead, know how mediawiki works
with this: it will make new blocks when a blank line is included, so you can
either remove the blank line, so that the above becomes:

<!-- T:100 -->
{{Cmd|foobar|output=<pre>
# This is some output
# Some more output
</pre>
}}

or you can use the translate tags to stop translation somewhere. This does
mean that the block will not be translatable, so only do this when there is
no translatable content in it:

</translate>
{{Cmd|foobar|output=<pre>
# This is some output

# Some more output
</pre>
}}
<translate>

I didn't put much focus on the split block thingie in the past, but I do
agree it doesn't look good, so I'll try to make translation blocks more
consistent in the future.

Where can I find overview of translatable pages?
================================================

Try https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Special:LanguageStats

The page will show you all translatable pages as well as your language'
progress on it.

Where can I find overview of not translatable (yet) pages?
================================================== ========

These are in https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Special:WithoutInterwiki

However, do not just mark pages for translations (i.e. adding <languages />
and translate tags) unless the document is in your opinion of good quality.

Translatable pages should be pages that have sufficient editing done on them
(and well maintained), well written (coherent usage of language), etc.

I don't know about other users on the wiki with the necessary rights, but I
*will* look at the quality of documents and discourage translations if I
personally don't think they are well written yet - I'll let people know
through the Talk page then.

Wkr,
Sven Vermeulen
 

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