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Old 05-23-2008, 01:15 PM
Marius Mauch
 
Default About herds and their non-existant use

On Fri, 23 May 2008 14:07:41 +0200
Tiziano Müller <dev-zero@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Santiago M. Mola wrote:
>
> > On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Tiziano Müller
> > <dev-zero@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >> Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote:
> >>> While we're changing things around, perhaps we can then also
> >>> standardize the mail alias to team@gentoo.org.
> >>> What Marius is saying though is that there are two files that
> >>> handle people and their herds. One XML for saying who is in a
> >>> herd and one for each herd mail alias on woodpecker with a list
> >>> of developer email prefixes.
> >>
> >> Which could be generated out of the XML file, right?
> >>
> >
> > It could, but it would be nice to preserve a method for allowing
> > lurkers on aliases.
>
> I'm sure something like this should be possible:
>
> ### AUTOGENERATED PART, DO NOT EDIT ###
> ...
> ### AUTOGENERATED END ###
>
> ### Add additional aliases here:
> ...

When you want to generate mail aliases from an XML file I'm quite sure
you could list lurkers in the XML file by tagging them somehow
(attribute or different element name). The main thing is to have one
authorative location.

Marius
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Old 05-23-2008, 01:40 PM
"Robin H. Johnson"
 
Default About herds and their non-existant use

On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 07:18:16AM +0200, Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Tiziano ??? wrote:
> | Marius Mauch wrote:
> |>> - only have one location where members of a given team are listed,
> |>> currently it's possible and quite likely that herds.xml and the mail
> |>> alias files get out of sync
> | Well, we need one location where the name of the team is mapped to the
> | actual mail-alias. But I don't get what you're trying to say...
>
> While we're changing things around, perhaps we can then also standardize
> the mail alias to team@gentoo.org.
The sole reason that isn't possible is that some teams would have names
that conflict with system accounts. While it's possible to override
those in the Gentoo mail server setup, the system account versions DO
receive a _LOT_ of spam because they are so common (eg mysql@, ldap@).

--
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85
 
Old 05-23-2008, 02:31 PM
 
Default About herds and their non-existant use

"Robin H. Johnson" <robbat2@gentoo.org> writes:

> The sole reason that isn't possible is that some teams would have names
> that conflict with system accounts. While it's possible to override
> those in the Gentoo mail server setup, the system account versions DO
> receive a _LOT_ of spam because they are so common (eg mysql@, ldap@).

What about standardising on a suffix too?

video-team@g.o or video-maintainers@g.o or video-devs@g.o

and then all the aliases following that

video-$suffix@g.o sound-$suffix@g.o and so on

--
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

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Old 05-23-2008, 04:44 PM
Rémi Cardona
 
Default About herds and their non-existant use

Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò a écrit :

"Robin H. Johnson" <robbat2@gentoo.org> writes:


The sole reason that isn't possible is that some teams would have names
that conflict with system accounts. While it's possible to override
those in the Gentoo mail server setup, the system account versions DO
receive a _LOT_ of spam because they are so common (eg mysql@, ldap@).


What about standardising on a suffix too?

video-team@g.o or video-maintainers@g.o or video-devs@g.o

and then all the aliases following that

video-$suffix@g.o sound-$suffix@g.o and so on



or $team@herds.gentoo.org ?

Rémi
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Old 05-24-2008, 10:00 AM
Tiziano Müller
 
Default About herds and their non-existant use

Marius Mauch wrote:
> Hmm, in that case maybe it's be possible to use a similar system for
> devs, e.g.
> <maintainer>
> <dev>genone</dev>
> </maintainer>
> and only use the <email> element for non-dev maintainers and upstream
> contacts. Anyway, as long as we use the same tag to list both
> individual and group maintainers it would be an improvement IMO.

Sure, that'd be great. This information could be autogenerated from LDAP
though.

This would result in something like this:

<pkgmetadata>
<xi:include href="http://www.gentoo.org/metadata/metadata-refs.xml"
xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude"/>
<!-- ^^ depends on how we decide to implement things -->
<maintainer>
<herd>foobar</herd>
</maintainer>
<maintainer primary="true">
<dev>moomooman</dev>
</maintainer>
<maintainer>
<email>foobar@somewhere.com</email>
<name>Someone Foobar</name>
<description>Proxy maintainer</description>
</maintainer>


Just in case someone's interested: http://dev.gentoo.org/~dev-zero/metadata/
There is a first metadata.xsd and a couple of metadata.xml files for
testing.

You can validate using this: 'xmllint --xinclude --schema
metadata.xsd --noout $FILE' since xmllint seems to ignore the XSD
specification in the XML and tries to validate against a non-existing DTD.

The metadata.xsd is a work-in-progress and not finished (yet).

Cheers,
Tiziano


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Old 05-24-2008, 10:26 AM
Tiziano Müller
 
Default About herds and their non-existant use

Marius Mauch wrote:
> have the raw XML file. Anyway, that's maybe more of a policy problem,
> we just need to enforce 'name == mail alias' (or would that be such a
> horrible requirement?)
Ahem, yes.

Consider these examples:
1) pgsql@gentoo.org
2) pgsql-bugs@gentoo.org
3) a.dev@gentoo.org
4) a.nonexisting.dev@gentoo.org
5) moon@cow.com
6) pgsql-bugs@genoo.org

1) should validate to false because the alias actually is
pgsql-bugs@gentoo.org. Can be validated against herds.xml
2) should validate to true. Can be validated against herds.xml
3) should validate to true. Needs validation against LDAP.
4) should validate to false. Needs validation against LDAP.
5) can't be validated and is therefore always true.
6) can't be validated and is therefore always true (but is in fact a typo)

Now you can say: ok, if we have "@gentoo.org" in it, we go through all the
cases and in case we don't find it in the LDAP or in herds.xml, it is a
faulty entry.
But that requires some more scripts and more time to parse than a
single "xmllint"-run.

Now: When we introduce a <team> (and maybe a <dev>) element in <maintainer>,
we exactly know, what it should be.
What the content of such elements should match (whether <name> or <email> in
herds.xml) is another question (where I tend to say it should be <name>
such that aliases can be changed in case of spam-issues, etc.).

>
>> >> - it would simplify bug assignment rules, as the current case
>> >> where a package has both a <herd> and a <maintainer> tag in
>> >> metadata.xml no longer exists
>> It doesn't. You can still have more than one <maintainer> in there.
>> We'd have to introduce an attribute to mark the primary maintainer.
>
> Relying on the order of <maintainer> elements doesn't work because ...?
XML 1.0 specification doesn't define an order and parsers can therefore
ignore it (using the data to auto-assign bugs can then be unreliable).

> (Assign to first listed maintainer, CC others)
>
>> >> - only have one location where members of a given team are listed,
>> >> currently it's possible and quite likely that herds.xml and the
>> >> mail alias files get out of sync
>> Well, we need one location where the name of the team is mapped to the
>> actual mail-alias. But I don't get what you're trying to say...
>
> Why do you need to separate the name from the alias? Sure, sometimes
> there are technical reasons why you can't use your preferred name as
> mail alias (when it matches a system account), but then you can just
> adjust your name a bit (e.g. adding some suffix).
Changing your name because of technical difficulties? This is really not the
way to go. Systems have to be adjusted to meet our needs, not the other way
round (in case it is possible of course).
But nevertheless, it would be nice to have a common scheme as pointed out by
Flameeyes/Remi.

And I really, really, want to be able to create the project "gentoo@home" to
develop a client users can install to help us compile... ;-)

> Don't know if you're aware of this, but the separation of herd names
> and aliases of the herd maintainers has always been something that
> bug-wranglers complained about.
Because it isn't possible to auto-assign bugs and because they weren't aware
that with a short script it is possible to resolve herd-names to
mail-aliases (well, probably they are but it slows down the workflow).

> But my main issue is that currently we have multiple unconnected
> locations where teams are defined, some more and some less important:
> - herds.xml
> - project pages
> - mail aliases
> - cvs access groups
> - role definitions in ldap/roll-call
> So when someone wants to change his roles there are a lot of places to
> care about, and it's likely that one or more are forgotten and things
> get out of sync, so you have different views of who actually belongs to
> a group depending on what source you use. Don't know if it has improved
> in the last years, but it used to happen quite often that herds.xml was
> completely out of sync with reality simply because it didn't
> really affect anything (now that jeeves is using it it's probably
> become a bit better).
> Ideally we could list that information in just one authorative
> location, but that's not feasable for technical reasons, but if we can
> eliminate one source (or auto-generate it from another source) the
> problem is already reduced quite a bit. And herds.xml is IMO the most
> likely candidates for that, but there are of course also other ways to
> improve the situation.
The most likely candidate to be autogenerated or the most likely candidate
to autogenerate other information?

Well, as pointed out: it would be possible add a new element to <herd>
named "<watcher>" (or alike) which indicates a Dev not being part of the
team but wants to be added to the mail-alias. But then we really should
rename "herd" to "team". The role-information is already in the herds.xml
so referencing the team-name from a project site should be enough to
generate the needed information (maybe extend the role-element by an
element to allow this: <role>Developer/Security Liaison
<description>emacs</description></role>).

And why do we reference the project-url in <maintainingproject> and not just
the name of the project?

Cheers,
Tiziano


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Old 05-24-2008, 11:06 AM
Ulrich Mueller
 
Default About herds and their non-existant use

>>>>> On Sat, 24 May 2008, Tiziano Müller wrote:

> Changing your name because of technical difficulties? This is really
> not the way to go. Systems have to be adjusted to meet our needs,
> not the other way round (in case it is possible of course).

+1

> But nevertheless, it would be nice to have a common scheme as
> pointed out by Flameeyes/Remi.

But then it should be $HERD@gentoo.org rather than
$HERD-$SUFFIX@gentoo.org, because the former is the most common case
now (followed by $HERD-bugs@gentoo.org).

It would be quite pointless to change most teams' e-mail addresses in
our documentation.

Ulrich
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Old 05-24-2008, 11:19 AM
Tiziano Müller
 
Default About herds and their non-existant use

Ulrich Mueller wrote:

>>>>>> On Sat, 24 May 2008, Tiziano Müller wrote:
>
>> Changing your name because of technical difficulties? This is really
>> not the way to go. Systems have to be adjusted to meet our needs,
>> not the other way round (in case it is possible of course).
>
> +1
>
>> But nevertheless, it would be nice to have a common scheme as
>> pointed out by Flameeyes/Remi.
>
> But then it should be $HERD@gentoo.org rather than
> $HERD-$SUFFIX@gentoo.org, because the former is the most common case
> now (followed by $HERD-bugs@gentoo.org).
Which seems not to be possible because:
a) name clashes with system-accounts
b) common names are being spammed

>
> It would be quite pointless to change most teams' e-mail addresses in
> our documentation.
That's why we should be able to use something like
<team-alias>$TEAM</team-alias> which gets replaced by the proper mail-alias
in the XSL (and yes, we could then also inject something obfuscated instead
of the real email-alias :-)

Cheers,
Tiziano


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