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Old 10-01-2012, 09:00 PM
Diego Elio Pettenò
 
Default Discussing stuff that is not appropriate to discuss

On 01/10/2012 13:54, Rich Freeman wrote:
> I don't think we can keep the discussion off -dev forever though. It
> seems like we're close to being able to implement, which means lots of
> changes that impact all devs. I can't imagine that we'd want to
> implement that without some kind of council vote. Perhaps the
> appropriate approach is to propose a GLEP?

No, the appropriate approach is first to _talk with Infra_. Guys I said
that before, but unless you actually factor in Infra when you want
infrastructure stuff done, you have to do the work yourself.
And it might not be nice and fun.

Honestly, this whole thread, with the exception of Rafael, makes me
facepalm incredibly, because everybody is saying "it's easy!" without
asking the people who have done the work up to now and will have to
manage it. And it pisses me off.

(Among other things, because it feels like most of the complains about
the way tinderbox's logs are handled, "it's easy!" but nobody but me is
ever going to pick up the task, ...)

So to close this in a few words: You walk the walk, you talk the talk.
And I have no intention to read another mail with "what other awesome
thing we can do if we migrate to git and we don't even have to worry
about what it might happen on the serverside because git is just magical
and will sort itself out", okay?

--
Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
 
Old 10-01-2012, 09:55 PM
Diego Elio Pettenò
 
Default Discussing stuff that is not appropriate to discuss

On 01/10/2012 14:41, Peter Stuge wrote:
> Noone said it's easy.

«This just strikes me as something that is about at the point where we
could "just do it."»

This was Rich at 11.29 Pacific Time.

> Several said it needs to just-be-done, without further consensus.
> I support that. Everyone also agrees that there will be issues, but
> I think the idea is that switching sooner rather than later and
> fixing up the bits that break is fine. Even if it takes a while.

Okay so you have your idea. Keep it. But don't try to force it on people
who are actual developers.

> It shouldn't. There may be others on the list besides Gentoo infra
> who know a thing or two about infrastructure, operations, CVS, Git,
> and so on.

Sure, but they are not Gentoo Infra. And who has to maintain this?
Gentoo Infra. You want to do the conversion and maintain it yourself?
Feel free, nobody's stopping you. You're free to fork.

> I have no idea about that issue, but it seems quite distinct.

It's the same bullshit of insisting that someone else should do
something just because you think it's better, without actually asking
for feasibility.

> I could help out, I
> know a couple of infra guys, but I can't even get recruited because
> quizzes need too much contiguous time out of my schedule..

That's true for everybody. And knowing the infra guys doesn't mean that
you're infra still. I'm not infra either and I don't speak _for_ them,
but for this kind of stuff, instead of starting a SEVENTEEN POSTS thread
on a mailing list that should be dedicated to other stuff, the solution
is first _ask what the status is_.

With all due respect, but having Michael going off a tangent on caching
proxy servers, Rich starting to ponder between bandwidth and CPU, and
you calling for shutdown dates, all without changing a stupid subject
line to at least show you're no longer speaking about the original topic
(it's not like people can be psychic that you're talking about GIT
migrations when the topic says "CIA replacement"), is obnoxious.

--
Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
 
Old 10-01-2012, 10:24 PM
Diego Elio Pettenò
 
Default Discussing stuff that is not appropriate to discuss

On 01/10/2012 15:21, Peter Stuge wrote:
> Diego Elio Pettenò wrote:
>> With all due respect,
> ..
>> you calling for shutdown dates
> ..

> all without changing a stupid subject
> line to at least show you're no longer speaking about the original topic
> (it's not like people can be psychic that you're talking about GIT
> migrations when the topic says "CIA replacement"),

Yes just cut out the part that makes it obnoxious, will ya?

>> is obnoxious.

> Another idea I have, besides the go-ahead+fix what breaks, is that
> after everything has broken, Gentoo developers will not be spamming
> this mailing list like three-year-olds screaming rude complaints
> about how things do not work and calling infra bad names, but that
> they will actually *help out* with whatever needs fixing.

Then you probably don't know half the Gentoo developers....

--
Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
 
Old 10-01-2012, 10:58 PM
Diego Elio Pettenò
 
Default Discussing stuff that is not appropriate to discuss

On 01/10/2012 15:53, Peter Stuge wrote:
>> > Then you probably don't know half the Gentoo developers....
> I think they are the ones who should fork.

Unfortunately the problem is that they tend to linger around even after
forking...

--
Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
 
Old 10-02-2012, 12:51 AM
"Gregory M. Turner"
 
Default Discussing stuff that is not appropriate to discuss

If you're going to paint me and the other folks expressing opinions as
entitled mouth-breathers, certainly you can't expect not to hear any
reply because it's "off-topic"!


On 10/1/2012 2:00 PM, Diego Elio Petten wrote:

On 01/10/2012 13:54, Rich Freeman wrote:

I don't think we can keep the discussion off -dev forever though. It
seems like we're close to being able to implement, which means lots of
changes that impact all devs. I can't imagine that we'd want to
implement that without some kind of council vote. Perhaps the
appropriate approach is to propose a GLEP?


No, the appropriate approach is first to _talk with Infra_. Guys I said
that before, but unless you actually factor in Infra when you want
infrastructure stuff done, you have to do the work yourself.
And it might not be nice and fun.


Well I definitely can't argue with the above, and I didn't know about
-scm but, hey, you learn something new every day; anyhow I'm not sure
it's makes it inappropriate to discuss.



So to close this in a few words: You walk the walk, you talk the talk.
And I have no intention to read another mail with "what other awesome
thing we can do if we migrate to git and we don't even have to worry
about what it might happen on the serverside because git is just magical
and will sort itself out", okay?


OK, also agreed that git lacks entirely in magical properties -- I
wasn't aware of having said anything suggesting otherwise. I have some
limited experience as a git admin and am aware of git's considerable
limitations with respect to provisioning, security configuration,
scalability and other non-optional features for a public-facing
deployment. There is more to be said on the matter but I'll take that
to -scm.


Anyhow, I get it: administering the vcs for a huge project such as
Gentoo is very hard work. If I somehow gave some other impression, I'm
sorry. Perhaps Rich and I insensitively voiced our shared assumption
that Gentoo's continued reliance on cvs stems from a lack of motivation
and consensus, rather than a shortage of labor and resources. Then
again, if the folks in the trenches doing the work think I've slighted
them, surely they are perfectly capable of chewing me out on their own
behalfs and don't need you to do it for them?


I'm not looking for a fight, but after reading the above and some other
remarks in this thread, by you and others, I did want to at least
clarify my position: No, of course I couldn't possibly know all the
repercussions of a change like this, but I also find it difficult to
believe that whatever hurdles exist are so intractable that we'd might
as well just throw in the towel. Although I regret any bad feelings I
may have caused, I stand by my statements. To be clear, the "magic" of
the Gentoo community -- not git -- is what I believe will make this
doable, and yes, I appreciate that that "magic" is actually just a lot
of people doing a lot of nasty, thankless chores.


As for the whole put-up/shut-up business, I'd be happy to help out any
way I can (although tbh I'd still say whatever was on my mind even if I
was too busy). I'll contact Infrastructure to make sure they're aware
of me.


-gmt
 
Old 10-02-2012, 12:58 AM
Diego Elio Pettenò
 
Default Discussing stuff that is not appropriate to discuss

On 01/10/2012 17:51, Gregory M. Turner wrote:
>
> Anyhow, I get it: administering the vcs for a huge project such as
> Gentoo is very hard work. If I somehow gave some other impression, I'm
> sorry. Perhaps Rich and I insensitively voiced our shared assumption
> that Gentoo's continued reliance on cvs stems from a lack of motivation
> and consensus, rather than a shortage of labor and resources.

That's definitely not the case. While we do have had some complains
(mostly from Prefix last I knew) about git's working, the consensus for
going to git is there. The problems are vastly technical.

Problems such as "how many developers would be fine with having to
checkout 2GB of history to be able to commit"? git support shallow
clones but not if you want to commit to them.

> Then
> again, if the folks in the trenches doing the work think I've slighted
> them, surely they are perfectly capable of chewing me out on their own
> behalfs and don't need you to do it for them?

It is at the very least disturbing that you think that people whose
work, and commitment, has been overlooked for a whole discussion can't
be bothered by it unless they are actually reactive aggressively.

I know the kind of thankless tasks Infra has to deal with on a daily
basis, and I think they deserve more respect that most of the time they
are given here, especially when technical challenges are billed under
the "we just need to push harder for it to move" banner like this time.

--
Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
 
Old 10-02-2012, 01:14 AM
Michael Mol
 
Default Discussing stuff that is not appropriate to discuss

On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 8:58 PM, Diego Elio Petten
<flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> On 01/10/2012 17:51, Gregory M. Turner wrote:
>>
>> Anyhow, I get it: administering the vcs for a huge project such as
>> Gentoo is very hard work. If I somehow gave some other impression, I'm
>> sorry. Perhaps Rich and I insensitively voiced our shared assumption
>> that Gentoo's continued reliance on cvs stems from a lack of motivation
>> and consensus, rather than a shortage of labor and resources.
>
> That's definitely not the case. While we do have had some complains
> (mostly from Prefix last I knew) about git's working, the consensus for
> going to git is there. The problems are vastly technical.
>
> Problems such as "how many developers would be fine with having to
> checkout 2GB of history to be able to commit"? git support shallow
> clones but not if you want to commit to them.
>
>> Then
>> again, if the folks in the trenches doing the work think I've slighted
>> them, surely they are perfectly capable of chewing me out on their own
>> behalfs and don't need you to do it for them?
>
> It is at the very least disturbing that you think that people whose
> work, and commitment, has been overlooked for a whole discussion can't
> be bothered by it unless they are actually reactive aggressively.
>
> I know the kind of thankless tasks Infra has to deal with on a daily
> basis, and I think they deserve more respect that most of the time they
> are given here, especially when technical challenges are billed under
> the "we just need to push harder for it to move" banner like this time.

Some fascinating problems (social and technical) to address. I joined
the -scm list because it was implied that these things would be
discussed over there.

Could we "take this outside"? I'd be interested in looking at
solutions...but I don't want to drop them in here, since it's been
pounded on a few times by a few people that this isn't the place.

--
:wq
 
Old 10-03-2012, 04:14 AM
Ryan Hill
 
Default Discussing stuff that is not appropriate to discuss

On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 14:00:58 -0700
Diego Elio Petten <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:

> (Among other things, because it feels like most of the complains about
> the way tinderbox's logs are handled, "it's easy!" but nobody but me is
> ever going to pick up the task, ...)

Well, duh. You designed, developed, and are the sole architect of the
system. You made an error in the design. You might have had good reasons at
the time, and you can argue them til you turn blue to anyone who will listen,
but if your end consumers see it as a flaw it isn't going to change
a thing. You're a service provider now. You need to provide
everything your customers ask for, before they ask for it, or you'll
get nailed to the nearest tree. Welcome to the wonderful world of
customer service.

Sorry to start yet another tangent.

--
gcc-porting
toolchain, wxwidgets we were never more here, expanse getting broader
@ gentoo.org but bigger boats been done by less water
 

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