I actually do like the concept but I'm not sure we can reach consensus
about '*DEPEND vs DEPENDENCIES'; a possibility to get people used to it
could be to have two parallel EAPIs, like 6 and 6-dependencies, where
the former will keep the old style and the latter use DEPENDENCIES.

After some time has passed, it could be decided to kill the less useful
one, say in EAPI 8, and get only one 'latest' EAPI again. This decision
doesn't need to be left only to the council, but since it affects
everyone it could be a vote from all the dev community.

There is also the possibility that a consensus will never be reached
and that the two styles will have to live forever, but after all, the
EAPI concept is made for this.

Given this possibility, a debate 'I perfer *DEPEND' vs 'DEPENDENCIES are
more flexible' doesn't make much sense now. What should be discussed is
the concept itself.

For example, what is the HDEPEND equivalent for DEPENDENCIES ? exherbo
documentation doesn't seem to mention an equivalent label.

Alexis.

On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 12:46:41 -0300
Alexis Ballier <aballier@gentoo.org> wrote:

> I actually do like the concept but I'm not sure we can reach consensus
> about '*DEPEND vs DEPENDENCIES'; a possibility to get people used to
> it could be to have two parallel EAPIs, like 6 and 6-dependencies,
> where the former will keep the old style and the latter use
> DEPENDENCIES.

With eclasses supporting both of them? That's more than crazy.

> After some time has passed, it could be decided to kill the less
> useful one, say in EAPI 8, and get only one 'latest' EAPI again. This
> decision doesn't need to be left only to the council, but since it
> affects everyone it could be a vote from all the dev community.

Why the dev community only? We have many active contributors who aren't
devs and who work hard with ebuilds. It's *their* time which will be
wasted on rewriting dependencies into new form, not yours.

> There is also the possibility that a consensus will never be reached
> and that the two styles will have to live forever, but after all, the
> EAPI concept is made for this.

I believe the correct concept is 'fork'. And that's what Exherbo did.

> Given this possibility, a debate 'I perfer *DEPEND' vs 'DEPENDENCIES
> are more flexible' doesn't make much sense now. What should be
> discussed is the concept itself.
>
> For example, what is the HDEPEND equivalent for DEPENDENCIES ? exherbo
> documentation doesn't seem to mention an equivalent label.

But Ciaran has just said that this isn't about the labels! It's about
a philosophy in life.

Seriously saying, this isn't about equivalent types. We can choose any
labels we like. It's all about the form in which we will do it.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny

On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 12:46:41 -0300
Alexis Ballier <aballier@gentoo.org> wrote:
> For example, what is the HDEPEND equivalent for DEPENDENCIES ? exherbo
> documentation doesn't seem to mention an equivalent label.

DEPENDENCIES is essentially independent of what label names we
introduce. I get the impression Gentoo will be bikeshedding, er, I mean
selecting shorter names for some of the labels than what Exherbo is
using. So HDEPEND could be 'host' if you like.

In any case, the reason you don't see a 'host' label on Exherbo is
because it's called 'build'. Exherbo's taken a more comprehensive
approach to handling ROOT-related dependencies -- dependency resolution
for ROOT!=/ still uses / for satisfying not-purely-runtimeish
dependencies, and then has a way of locking versions on / to versions
in ROOT. It does rely upon having a fully-ROOT-and-/-aware resolver,
though, so it may not be suitable for Gentoo.

--
Ciaran McCreesh

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On 07/09/12 12:03 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 12:46:41 -0300 Alexis Ballier
> <aballier@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> I actually do like the concept but I'm not sure we can reach
>> consensus about '*DEPEND vs DEPENDENCIES'; a possibility to get
>> people used to it could be to have two parallel EAPIs, like 6 and
>> 6-dependencies, where the former will keep the old style and the
>> latter use DEPENDENCIES.
>
> With eclasses supporting both of them? That's more than crazy.
>

By the time EAPI=6* would happen we should have a git tree so we'd
just fork the tree for EAPI=6-dependencies.

A change like this would *NEED* a long-term test phase with a lot of
developer participation, so if we were to consider it we'd need to
fork the tree and implement/maintain it in parallel to main tree
maintenance, imo. A translation script could probably also be used to
convert *DEPEND into DEPENDENCIES automatically for any packages that
dev's aren't manually managing...

...But I digress; we're nowhere near doing this yet.
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On 9/7/12 5:46 PM, Alexis Ballier wrote:
> I actually do like the concept but I'm not sure we can reach consensus
> about '*DEPEND vs DEPENDENCIES'

I also like at least significant parts of the DEPENDENCIES concept,
especially when we start adding more dep variables like HDEPEND.

My understanding is that COMMON_DEPEND can be easily and uniformly
expressed as build+run.

Do we have some list of pros and cons, so that the discussion can be
more focused?

> a possibility to get people used to it
> could be to have two parallel EAPIs, like 6 and 6-dependencies, where
> the former will keep the old style and the latter use DEPENDENCIES.

How about just allowing older style DEPEND/RDEPEND, but not both
DEPEND/RDEPEND and DEPENDENCIES in the same ebuild? Note that this may
interact with eclasses (which is also true for above idea I think).

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Ian Stakenvicius <axs@gentoo.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 07/09/12 12:03 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
>> On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 12:46:41 -0300 Alexis Ballier
>> <aballier@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I actually do like the concept but I'm not sure we can reach
>>> consensus about '*DEPEND vs DEPENDENCIES'; a possibility to get
>>> people used to it could be to have two parallel EAPIs, like 6 and
>>> 6-dependencies, where the former will keep the old style and the
>>> latter use DEPENDENCIES.
>>
>> With eclasses supporting both of them? That's more than crazy.
>>
>
> By the time EAPI=6* would happen we should have a git tree so we'd
> just fork the tree for EAPI=6-dependencies.
>
> A change like this would *NEED* a long-term test phase with a lot of
> developer participation, so if we were to consider it we'd need to
> fork the tree and implement/maintain it in parallel to main tree
> maintenance, imo. A translation script could probably also be used to
> convert *DEPEND into DEPENDENCIES automatically for any packages that
> dev's aren't manually managing...
>
> ...But I digress; we're nowhere near doing this yet.

An intermediate form of that might be useful for auditing the tree and
finding packages which aren't expressing, e.g. RDEPENDS, but probably
should.

--
:wq

On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 12:28:31 -0400
Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> An intermediate form of that might be useful for auditing the tree and
> finding packages which aren't expressing, e.g. RDEPENDS, but probably
> should.

RDEPEND=DEPEND was removed in EAPI 4, if that's what you mean.

--
Ciaran McCreesh

On 9/7/12 6:03 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> Why the dev community only? We have many active contributors who aren't
> devs and who work hard with ebuilds. It's *their* time which will be
> wasted on rewriting dependencies into new form, not yours.

Should those contributors also vote? Do they have any formal status? Do
we have established procedures for that case?

By the way, for everyone else, there is a forums thread about this topic
here:
<http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-935812-start-0-postdays-0-postorder-asc-highlight-.html>

I guess the contributors follow gentoo-dev, so they at least can voice
their concerns, if any.

Also, requiring a rewrite of all existing ebuilds doesn't sound like a
good idea. I think this should be designed not to require a rewrite, and
then the concern about wasted time disappears.

On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 18:12:08 +0200
""Paweł Hajdan, Jr."" <phajdan.jr@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On 9/7/12 5:46 PM, Alexis Ballier wrote:
> > I actually do like the concept but I'm not sure we can reach
> > consensus about '*DEPEND vs DEPENDENCIES'
>
> I also like at least significant parts of the DEPENDENCIES concept,
> especially when we start adding more dep variables like HDEPEND.
>
> My understanding is that COMMON_DEPEND can be easily and uniformly
> expressed as build+run.
>
> Do we have some list of pros and cons, so that the discussion can be
> more focused?

There's one on the wiki but I'm not sure if it's up-to-date now. I made
it on top of the previous thread.

http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Future_EAPI/DEPENDENCIES_variable

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny

On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 18:40:47 +0200
""Paweł Hajdan, Jr."" <phajdan.jr@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Also, requiring a rewrite of all existing ebuilds doesn't sound like a
> good idea. I think this should be designed not to require a rewrite,
> and then the concern about wasted time disappears.

Uh, there is no "rewriting all existing ebuilds" anywhere. I've no idea
where you got that from...

--
Ciaran McCreesh