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Old 08-08-2012, 02:21 AM
Rich Freeman
 
Default Questions about SystemD and OpenRC

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Now, since Walter didn't like the way things are going, can he write
> code and be left in peace to do so? Maybe have a little bit of support
> while he is doing it?

++

I can't say I think that preferring mdev over an initramfs is a good
choice, but I can say that I prefer that people have the choice to
make in the first place. Nobody can expect anybody to maintain
something for them, but if some are willing to step up and give Gentoo
a bit of a broader perspective that is what we're all about. Where
else are you going to find a linux distro that can run a fair bit of
their repository on Interix of all things?

We all get grumpy from time to time, but I've learned that if you're
going to speak up it is best if you're doing so to offer something
better, and not just to gripe. My hat is always off to those who
write code, and the community around Gentoo that has allowed us to
choose whether to run it. Systemd, Dracut, Wayland, and more - bring
it on, and if my writing an odd init script/unit/whatever for a
package I maintain makes it possible to do something genuinely new
with Gentoo, then file all the bugs you want.

Rich
 
Old 08-08-2012, 10:55 AM
Duncan
 
Default Questions about SystemD and OpenRC

Michał Górny posted on Tue, 07 Aug 2012 22:13:21 +0200 as excerpted:

> Sorry for the confusion caused to you and the others. You need to read
> it bottom-to-top. I reversed the line order for Sylvain who seems to
> prefer reading that way.

LOL! THAT's what it was! Along the same lines...

...senil emas eht gnolA !saw ti tahw s'TAHT !LOL

http://www.textreverse.com/

(While the link I had saved was stale it did mean I still remembered
enough about it to plug the idea into google and successfully find it.
Link updated. =:^)

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
 
Old 08-08-2012, 11:06 AM
Kent Fredric
 
Default Questions about SystemD and OpenRC

On 8 August 2012 22:55, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
> LOL! THAT's what it was! Along the same lines...
>
> ...senil emas eht gnolA !saw ti tahw s'TAHT !LOL
>
> http://www.textreverse.com/
>
> (While the link I had saved was stale it did mean I still remembered
> enough about it to plug the idea into google and successfully find it.
> Link updated. =:^)

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=reverse+hgual%20doog%20a%20ekil%20sdnuos%20taht

Google not required ;D

(Also, that textreverse.com link was really slow to load )

--
Kent
 
Old 08-08-2012, 11:22 AM
Peter Stuge
 
Default Questions about SystemD and OpenRC

Kent Fredric wrote:
> > (While the link I had saved was stale it did mean I still remembered
> > enough about it to plug the idea into google and successfully find it.
> > Link updated. =:^)
>
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=reverse+hgual%20doog%20a%20ekil%20sdnuos%20taht
>
> Google not required ;D

Internet not required:

$ rev <<< foobar
raboof
$ tac <<< 'line1
> line2'
line2
line1
$


//Peter
 
Old 08-08-2012, 11:30 AM
Duncan
 
Default Questions about SystemD and OpenRC

Dale posted on Tue, 07 Aug 2012 16:36:30 -0500 as excerpted:

> What I don't like about the way Walter, mdev, is being treated is this.
> People say that if you don't like the way udev is going, WRITE CODE. If
> you are not going to write code, don't complain about udev. Then
> Walter, I think I got the name right, comes along and comes up with a
> alternative for udev that seems to work well for the people using it.
> Then people complain because he is actually stepping up and WRITING
> CODE. Well, it seems a person can't win on this.

FWIW, while this isn't (currently at least) a solution I'd use, I
certainly respect the man both for coming up with a solution to his own
problems, and more importantly, for sharing it with others. =:^)

The more so here, since as he's stated (and much like me), he's
reasonable with scripting, etc, but doesn't claim to be a C/C++ coder.

I believe there's quite a few list readers who have a similar respect for
his efforts. Just because it's not something they'd use personally,
doesn't mean they don't respect the idea.

I believe at least some of the push-back isn't out of disrespect per se,
or even saying it shouldn't be done, it's more a skepticism many within
the FLOSS community develop over time, having seen all sorts of projects
begun, but few of them actually survive more than a few months,
continuing to be maintained and updated over years. Just take a look at
sourceforge or github or the like, for the number of half-or quarter-
finished projects...

FLOSS projects are similar to business startups in that regard.
Something like 80% don't survive a year or ever become even close to self-
sufficient, but if they do... they're generally around for five. (Tho a
difference with FLOSS is that in 5-10 years, the /need/ for the project
has often disappeared as well, at least as originally envisioned. By
that point many projects that actually survived their first year and got
a userbase, have either evolved far enough from the original idea that
they're hardly recognizable, or have simply disappeared as no longer
necessary or useful. By contrast, a business life cycle, once it gets
beyond that first year, tends to be rather longer...

So I think a lot of it is more a "nice idea, we'll see if it sticks
around", more than a disrespect for it or the person behind it, per se.
If it's still around and actually useful in a couple years, I expect
you'll see a lot more overt respect that simply isn't evident, now.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
 
Old 08-08-2012, 11:39 AM
Peter Stuge
 
Default Questions about SystemD and OpenRC

Duncan wrote:
> I believe there's quite a few list readers who have a similar respect
> for his efforts.

I believe so too!

I think it's a great effort. It may not fit my use cases, but I don't
care about that - even if it is *only* Walter scratching his own itch
I agree that it's important to show some love for the work. It
doesn't matter right now if the itch will go away or if mdev will
rule the Linux desktop one day. It's ongoing work and I think it's
important not to dismiss it.


//Peter
 
Old 08-08-2012, 11:47 AM
Duncan
 
Default Questions about SystemD and OpenRC

Peter Stuge posted on Wed, 08 Aug 2012 13:22:54 +0200 as excerpted:

> Internet not required:
>
> $ rev <<< foobar
> raboof
> $ tac [...]

Thanks.

I'd read about those before (at least tac), but they aren't links (stale
or not), so I'd forgotten them...

Hmm... links to the manpages might solve that! =:^)

http://ss64.com/bash/tac.html

http://ss64.com/bash/rev.html

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
 
Old 08-08-2012, 08:27 PM
"Jason A. Donenfeld"
 
Default Questions about SystemD and OpenRC

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:

> You'd have to talk to them, but I believe their goal is to go for more
> of a vertically-integrated experience (which fits more with Gnome or
> KDE than Xfce, but again the last I'd heard only Gnome was going in
> this direction so far). Ubuntu is doing similar things with
> Unity/Upstart.

It's worth noting that KDE is actually becoming more independent, as
KDE Frameworks 5 is going to focus on having smaller separate reusable
components, with fewer monolithic dependencies.
 
Old 08-09-2012, 08:42 AM
Luca Barbato
 
Default Questions about SystemD and OpenRC

On 08/07/2012 09:00 PM, Olivier Crte wrote:
> I expect that in the not so long term, systemd will become an essential
> user-space component of desktop Linux, just like crond, syslog, dbus,
> udev or glibc. Sharing that code just makes sense, that allows

As in completely optional and easily replaceable? That would be a nice
improvement over the current "use it or die" attitude.

> distributions to focus on their strength instead of having to maintain a
> nightmare of shell scripts. Sure you can do a Android and write your own
> crappier version, but that doesn't gain you anything.

Repeat after me: having your first process require anything more than
libc is stupid and dangerous.

Once that concept gets accepted then we could discuss about why
reinventing shellscript may not be that sound and other less glaring,
horrid and appalling design choices.

Most ideas behind systemd are interesting, their current implementation
is sometimes completely wrong and given the experience with pulseaudio
we all know that they won't change even if you provide code for it.

Obviously it is always fun seeing people first say "accept it or fork
it", then "do not keep your fork you are wasting time" once somebody
starts forking and/or working for an alternative.


lu
 
Old 08-09-2012, 06:12 PM
Olivier Crte
 
Default Questions about SystemD and OpenRC

On Thu, 2012-08-09 at 10:42 +0200, Luca Barbato wrote:
> On 08/07/2012 09:00 PM, Olivier Crte wrote:
> > I expect that in the not so long term, systemd will become an essential
> > user-space component of desktop Linux, just like crond, syslog, dbus,
> > udev or glibc. Sharing that code just makes sense, that allows
>
> As in completely optional and easily replaceable? That would be a nice
> improvement over the current "use it or die" attitude.

Sure, you can use bionic and use a shell script as your PID 1. But no
one would do that as part of a desktop/server computer.

> Repeat after me: having your first process require anything more than
> libc is stupid and dangerous.

It's lucky that systemd only requires libc, libc-like libraries
(libselinux, libcap, libaudit, librt, etc) and it's own libraries (ie,
maintained by the systemd team) then?

> Most ideas behind systemd are interesting, their current implementation
> is sometimes completely wrong and given the experience with pulseaudio
> we all know that they won't change even if you provide code for it.

This is bullshit, if you have good reasoned arguments, Lennart is a very
reasonable guy, but if you just say "your ideas are shit, you code is
terrible", then yes, he'll just ignore you.

--
Olivier Crte
tester@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer
 

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