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Old 07-24-2012, 12:28 PM
Duncan
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto posted on Tue, 24 Jul 2012 10:54:25 +0000 as
excerpted:

> Starting with catalyst 2.0.10, make.conf and make.profile will be moved
> from /etc to /etc/portage.

As with other app-focused news items, if it were a catalyst-user-focused
change, you'd set the filter accordingly. The fact that you're
deliberately not doing so should correspondingly mean deliberately not
mentioning catalyst either, as many in the target audience will have no
clue what catalyst actually is. (For that matter, don't mention releng
either. Just stages, users know what STAGES are! =:^)


Users want to know what's changing (the location of make.conf, but ONLY
in new stage tarballs), where it's changing to (/etc/portage/), when it's
changing (don't say with whatever catalyst version, users don't care, say
when, with stage snapshots built after July 30), and how it affects
existing installations (existing users can continue using the old
location for the foreseeable future, but can move it to the new location
if necessary; if both locations exist, say which overrides).

Meanwhile, a general suggestion I've made for other news items as well.
It doesn't yet really apply here, but could once the elsewhere suggested
details of which one overrides if both are present, possible coverage of
make.profile, etc, are covered:

News items are ideally short and to the point. Think of the teaser
paragraph under a newspaper headline or on many rss/atom feeds, directing
you to the main article for more. If they'd end up more than a paragragh
including details, shorten it to a single descriptive paragraph and add a
link to an article with the details. That way you can keep the news item
short and to the point, while properly covering the details without
having to worry about space constraints, elsewhere.

(FWIW, between the thread title saying make.conf but the proposed news
item focusing on catalyst, and the already fixed postfix flub, I was
REALLY confused with the first version, and only with this version
understand it even well enough to make this observation in the first
place. And unlike many gentoo users, I actually know what catalyst is!
Unlike me, they won't have the postfix mistake thrown at them, but also
unlike me, likely won't have a clue what catalyst is, so I'd guess the
confusion level with the current wording would remain similar... so
totally confused they have no idea what the news item is actually trying
to say!)

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
 
Old 07-24-2012, 01:21 PM
Ian Stakenvicius
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

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Hash: SHA256

On 23/07/12 09:58 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> On 24-07-2012 01:33, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
>> <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I propose to commit this news item in 2 or 3 days. Does anyone
>>> have any comments about it?
>
>> What action if any do you want Gentoo users to take. If I read
>> that news item the first question I'd have is where SHOULD I
>> keep those files? Should I leave them alone? Should I move
>> them? Will anything bad happen either way?
>
>> If the answer is that we're changing the defaults but plan to
>> support the old way for a very long time, then spell that out.
>> Otherwise you'll get a million people asking about it.
>
> This is just a heads-up for Gentoo users that got used to find
> make.conf and make.profile under /etc in stages, that these files
> will stop being there and will instead be under /etc/portage. So we
> are changing the defaults.


Given that this just affects new installs, is a news item (via
portage) a particularly good way to inform everyone? I was wondering
if it'd make more sense to notify on the website and *definitely*
change the Handbook...

..and maybe include an '/etc/make.conf.moved' in the stage files for
the next 6 months which says the above?

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Old 07-24-2012, 01:24 PM
Rich Freeman
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 8:09 AM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 24-07-2012 08:01:40 -0400, Michael Mol wrote:
>> 3) That news item about udev-181 and a unified /usr is still greeting
>> new users...and it's still claiming an unmask of 2012-03-19, which is
>> three months ago. It's quite confusing in that it claims an event is
>> going to occur, in the past, and it still hasn't occurred.
>
> ... and how about that --as-needed one? so annoying, it usually doesn't
> even apply to the systems I'm installing on.

I'll agree that something needs to be done to clean up past news items
that are obsolete. Can we go back and make them expire or just delete
them? Yesterday's news isn't news.

I guess this is a matter of opinion, but on Gentoo I don't think we're
really at much risk of driving people away by OVER-communicating. Our
users are used to things changing and a certain level of
fix-it-yourself, but if we know something is going to cause no end of
questions it only makes sense to throw the users a bone once in a
while.

Rich
 
Old 07-24-2012, 01:33 PM
Ian Stakenvicius
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

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On 24/07/12 07:39 AM, Fabian Groffen wrote:

> From a different angle, perhaps stage3s shouldn't include a
> default /etc/make.conf at all. Would solve this issue nicely, and
> doesn't require a news item at all, IMO.
>

Would that work? We still need the CHOST set, don't we?
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:33 PM
Fabian Groffen
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

On 24-07-2012 09:24:03 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> I guess this is a matter of opinion, but on Gentoo I don't think we're
> really at much risk of driving people away by OVER-communicating. Our
> users are used to things changing and a certain level of
> fix-it-yourself, but if we know something is going to cause no end of
> questions it only makes sense to throw the users a bone once in a
> while.

The way in which news items aggressively request your attention, makes
them something that should only be used if it's obvious it's important
for the user (e.g. postfix thing for postfix users).
This particular change seems more something for -announce, note in the
handbook, and something like the suggestion of a file giving a nice
hint.

My impression is that the message is absolutely useless to the majority
of users on their *already installed* system, so don't make everyone
have to see the news item notice a couple of times and run `eselect news
read` just for this.


--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level
 
Old 07-24-2012, 01:36 PM
Fabian Groffen
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

On 24-07-2012 09:33:39 -0400, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> On 24/07/12 07:39 AM, Fabian Groffen wrote:
>
> > From a different angle, perhaps stage3s shouldn't include a
> > default /etc/make.conf at all. Would solve this issue nicely, and
> > doesn't require a news item at all, IMO.
> >
>
> Would that work? We still need the CHOST set, don't we?

Yup, so it needs a bit more work.


--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level
 
Old 07-24-2012, 02:11 PM
Ulrich Mueller
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

>>>>> On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Rich Freeman wrote:

> I'll agree that something needs to be done to clean up past news items
> that are obsolete. Can we go back and make them expire or just delete
> them? Yesterday's news isn't news.

They can simply be removed from the repository. eselect news can
handle this since version 1.2.4 (released in 2009).

Ulrich
 
Old 07-24-2012, 03:05 PM
Michael Mol
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 8:09 AM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> On 24-07-2012 08:01:40 -0400, Michael Mol wrote:
>>> 3) That news item about udev-181 and a unified /usr is still greeting
>>> new users...and it's still claiming an unmask of 2012-03-19, which is
>>> three months ago. It's quite confusing in that it claims an event is
>>> going to occur, in the past, and it still hasn't occurred.
>>
>> ... and how about that --as-needed one? so annoying, it usually doesn't
>> even apply to the systems I'm installing on.
>
> I'll agree that something needs to be done to clean up past news items
> that are obsolete. Can we go back and make them expire or just delete
> them? Yesterday's news isn't news.
>
> I guess this is a matter of opinion, but on Gentoo I don't think we're
> really at much risk of driving people away by OVER-communicating. Our
> users are used to things changing and a certain level of
> fix-it-yourself, but if we know something is going to cause no end of
> questions it only makes sense to throw the users a bone once in a
> while.

I just want to point out that while established users are likely
accustomed to fixing things from time to time, having non-relevant or
counter-informative[1] communication in news items makes first-time
setups very difficult. Sometimes unavoidable, I'm sure, but I think
it's something that should be avoided if possible.

On the subject of things related to catalyst...I realized I don't even
know what that is, and will likely have some reading to do. My remarks
on the handbook's content about make.conf may or may not be relevant,
depending on if catalyst is a special case.

[1] That udev-181 stabilization news item was warning of something
which _still_ hasn't come to pass, three months after the indicated
date.

--
:wq
 
Old 07-24-2012, 05:15 PM
Michael Orlitzky
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

On 07/24/12 09:21, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
>
> Given that this just affects new installs, is a news item (via
> portage) a particularly good way to inform everyone? I was wondering
> if it'd make more sense to notify on the website and *definitely*
> change the Handbook...
>
> ..and maybe include an '/etc/make.conf.moved' in the stage files for
> the next 6 months which says the above?

I think a news item is reasonable here (in addition to the above). Most
users don't know about the move from /etc/make.conf to
/etc/portage/make.conf. After this change, there will be a
gradually-increasing need to know that a switch took place.

1) To a first approximation, nobody reads the documentation.

2) /etc/portage/make.conf overrides the traditional location. If you
have both, it will lead to subtle problems. After this change, new
users won't even know that /etc/make.conf used to exist, so there's
a possibility of two admins stepping on each others' feet.

3) When providing help on forums and mailing lists, existing users
will need to know that the location was switched.

4) There are problems I haven't thought of. Better safe than sorry.
 
Old 07-24-2012, 05:22 PM
Fabian Groffen
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

On 24-07-2012 13:15:43 -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> I think a news item is reasonable here (in addition to the above).

[snip good arguments]

But that's a news item on (a version of) Portage, not on catalyst and
stage3 building.


--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level
 

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