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Old 07-24-2012, 11:06 AM
"Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto"
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

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Hash: SHA1

On 24-07-2012 09:29, Maxim Kammerer wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 3:07 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
> <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> I propose to commit this news item in 2 or 3 days. Does anyone
>> have any comments about it?
>
> Several comments:
>
> 1. Maybe note that /etc/portage/make.conf takes precedence over
> /etc/make.conf?
>
> 2. New make.conf location (although supported) is not mentioned in
> portage(5) man page for currently stable sys-apps/portage
> (2.1.10.65).
>
> 3. This news item is really useful, since the change has a
> potential to break automated builds.
>
> 4. Are the other files / links in /etc also moving?
>
> # ls -ld /etc/make.* -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 3554 Jul 24 09:20
> /etc/make.conf -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 421 Jul 3 22:03
> /etc/make.conf.catalyst lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 42 Jul 12 18:15
> /etc/make.profile -> ../usr/portage/profiles/hardened/linux/x86

This is what we're moving with catalyst to /etc/portage

> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 40 Jul 20 00:26 /etc/make.globals ->
> ../usr/share/portage/config/make.globals

This symlink is installed by Portage, so it's outside catalyst control.

- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng


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Old 07-24-2012, 11:07 AM
Fabian Groffen
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

On 24-07-2012 10:59:08 +0000, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> > I still don't see why you'd bother all existing users with that
> > info. Just blog, or (better) write a nice email to -announce, and
> > update the install docs.
>
> The point of "bugging" all users was to minimize the risk of a user
> not being aware of the change. If the general consensus is that this
> should not be sent as news item (GLEP42), I'll drop itl

I don't know about general consensus. In my opinion, it's plain spam to
existing users. (And that would IMO be the xth news item in a row to be
spam.)

> > Also, can you exclude all Prefix profiles for this news item if
> > you insist on pushing it out?
>
> I don't know the specific methods to filter news items, so if you or
> others can help with that, I'd appreciate.
> If anyone has particular suggestions about who should see this news
> item, including the filter of how to achieve that, please let me know.

You can limit news items to certain profiles, so, you could make them
apply to the default/linux profiles, I guess. Not sure if the FreeBSD
guys are affected by your catalyst change. If so, they might want to be
included too.


--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level
 
Old 07-24-2012, 11:12 AM
Ulrich Mueller
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

>>>>> On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Maxim Kammerer wrote:

> Well, at least this discrepancy is documented (portage(5)):

> “[/etc/portage/]make.conf: […] If present, this file will override
> settings from /etc/make.conf.”
> “If both /etc/make.profile/ and /etc/portage/make.profile/ exist, then
> /etc/make.profile/ will be preferred.”

I'd suggest that this is made consistent. The new location should be
preferred.

> (no mention of /etc/make.globals, though — perhaps it can be removed
> from stage3)

Looks like is is installed by Portage:

$ qfile /etc/make.globals
sys-apps/portage (/etc/make.globals)

Ulrich
 
Old 07-24-2012, 11:20 AM
Rich Freeman
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:07 AM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I don't know about general consensus. In my opinion, it's plain spam to
> existing users. (And that would IMO be the xth news item in a row to be
> spam.)

Can't say I agree here. Some news items have been more useful than
others, but I doubt the typical Gentoo user (who does not subscribe to
-dev) would think that many of the past messages have been spam.

Right now news is our only mechanism to warn users that something is
about to happen BEFORE it happens. Anytime I talk to somebody who has
left Gentoo the #1 thing I tend to hear is that they were tired of
things just breaking without warning. Even following -dev I've been
surprised by the odd upgrade - I can imagine the typical user would be
even more confused.

Long-time Gentoo users aren't going to notice in the handbook that the
location of /etc/make.conf has moved - I know that if I'm doing an
install I tend to use the handbook as a checklist but I skim through
it so fast that I doubt I'd notice a big change. They're going to
appreciate a heads-up. The only people who wouldn't consider it news
are those following this list, and judging by the state of this thread
you'll already have read 40 posts on the topic, so the 41st won't be
that big of a deal.

Rich
 
Old 07-24-2012, 11:39 AM
Fabian Groffen
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

On 24-07-2012 07:20:31 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:07 AM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > I don't know about general consensus. In my opinion, it's plain spam to
> > existing users. (And that would IMO be the xth news item in a row to be
> > spam.)
>
> Can't say I agree here. Some news items have been more useful than
> others, but I doubt the typical Gentoo user (who does not subscribe to
> -dev) would think that many of the past messages have been spam.

Ok. This is subjective.

> Long-time Gentoo users aren't going to notice in the handbook that the
> location of /etc/make.conf has moved - I know that if I'm doing an
> install I tend to use the handbook as a checklist but I skim through
> it so fast that I doubt I'd notice a big change. They're going to
> appreciate a heads-up. The only people who wouldn't consider it news
> are those following this list, and judging by the state of this thread
> you'll already have read 40 posts on the topic, so the 41st won't be
> that big of a deal.

Long-time Gentoo users either 1) don't reinstall systems that often (why
would they?), or 2) know that things every once in a while change.

IMO, with 1) you'd expect that user to read the docs again when doing a
new install. With 2) they already figured out when they did a new
install that /etc/make.conf was not there, however putting something in
a file out there did work as expected as well.

From a different angle, perhaps stage3s shouldn't include a default
/etc/make.conf at all. Would solve this issue nicely, and doesn't
require a news item at all, IMO.

At the moment Portage refuses to read /etc/make.conf, a news item and
possibly even a block of Portage update until the file has been moved
would be in order.

--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level
 
Old 07-24-2012, 11:46 AM
Maxim Kammerer
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
<jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 40 Jul 20 00:26 /etc/make.globals ->
>> ../usr/share/portage/config/make.globals
>
> This symlink is installed by Portage, so it's outside catalyst control.

Bug filed: https://bugs.gentoo.org/427862

--
Maxim Kammerer
Libert Linux: http://dee.su/liberte
 
Old 07-24-2012, 12:01 PM
Michael Mol
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 24-07-2012 07:20:31 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:07 AM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> > I don't know about general consensus. In my opinion, it's plain spam to
>> > existing users. (And that would IMO be the xth news item in a row to be
>> > spam.)
>>
>> Can't say I agree here. Some news items have been more useful than
>> others, but I doubt the typical Gentoo user (who does not subscribe to
>> -dev) would think that many of the past messages have been spam.
>
> Ok. This is subjective.
>
>> Long-time Gentoo users aren't going to notice in the handbook that the
>> location of /etc/make.conf has moved - I know that if I'm doing an
>> install I tend to use the handbook as a checklist but I skim through
>> it so fast that I doubt I'd notice a big change. They're going to
>> appreciate a heads-up. The only people who wouldn't consider it news
>> are those following this list, and judging by the state of this thread
>> you'll already have read 40 posts on the topic, so the 41st won't be
>> that big of a deal.
>
> Long-time Gentoo users either 1) don't reinstall systems that often (why
> would they?), or 2) know that things every once in a while change.
>
> IMO, with 1) you'd expect that user to read the docs again when doing a
> new install. With 2) they already figured out when they did a new
> install that /etc/make.conf was not there, however putting something in
> a file out there did work as expected as well.

As a user who's done a lot of reinstalling this year, I can offer a
couple observations:

1) The handbook contains a barebones make.conf, just as it comes with
a number of other barebones configuration files. You probably don't
need to supply a make.conf file, since the barebones version is only a
few lines.
1a) I have to think that things like CHOST could be set somewhere
higher up, and only overridden in make.conf. Similarly, if there's a
round-robin DNS entry for GENTOO_MIRRORS, that could be defaulted,
too.

2) Once I got to the point where I was frequently reinstalling, I
started copying and tweaking make.conf files from working systems
rather than doing a full rebuild.

3) That news item about udev-181 and a unified /usr is still greeting
new users...and it's still claiming an unmask of 2012-03-19, which is
three months ago. It's quite confusing in that it claims an event is
going to occur, in the past, and it still hasn't occurred.

>
> From a different angle, perhaps stage3s shouldn't include a default
> /etc/make.conf at all. Would solve this issue nicely, and doesn't
> require a news item at all, IMO.

From the perspective of a user who often deals with the install
process, and occasionally helps others with it, I think this is could
be very good.


--
:wq
 
Old 07-24-2012, 12:09 PM
Fabian Groffen
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

On 24-07-2012 08:01:40 -0400, Michael Mol wrote:
> As a user who's done a lot of reinstalling this year, I can offer a
> couple observations:
>
> 1) The handbook contains a barebones make.conf, just as it comes with
> a number of other barebones configuration files. You probably don't
> need to supply a make.conf file, since the barebones version is only a
> few lines.
> 1a) I have to think that things like CHOST could be set somewhere
> higher up, and only overridden in make.conf. Similarly, if there's a
> round-robin DNS entry for GENTOO_MIRRORS, that could be defaulted,
> too.

In Prefix, we just set CHOST in the profiles.

> 2) Once I got to the point where I was frequently reinstalling, I
> started copying and tweaking make.conf files from working systems
> rather than doing a full rebuild.
>
> 3) That news item about udev-181 and a unified /usr is still greeting
> new users...and it's still claiming an unmask of 2012-03-19, which is
> three months ago. It's quite confusing in that it claims an event is
> going to occur, in the past, and it still hasn't occurred.

... and how about that --as-needed one? so annoying, it usually doesn't
even apply to the systems I'm installing on.

> > From a different angle, perhaps stage3s shouldn't include a default
> > /etc/make.conf at all. Would solve this issue nicely, and doesn't
> > require a news item at all, IMO.
>
> From the perspective of a user who often deals with the install
> process, and occasionally helps others with it, I think this is could
> be very good.

--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level
 
Old 07-24-2012, 12:13 PM
William Kenworthy
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 07:20 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:07 AM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > I don't know about general consensus. In my opinion, it's plain spam to
> > existing users. (And that would IMO be the xth news item in a row to be
> > spam.)
>
> Can't say I agree here. Some news items have been more useful than
> others, but I doubt the typical Gentoo user (who does not subscribe to
> -dev) would think that many of the past messages have been spam.
>
> Right now news is our only mechanism to warn users that something is
> about to happen BEFORE it happens. Anytime I talk to somebody who has
> left Gentoo the #1 thing I tend to hear is that they were tired of
> things just breaking without warning. Even following -dev I've been
> surprised by the odd upgrade - I can imagine the typical user would be
> even more confused.
>
> Long-time Gentoo users aren't going to notice in the handbook that the
> location of /etc/make.conf has moved - I know that if I'm doing an
> install I tend to use the handbook as a checklist but I skim through
> it so fast that I doubt I'd notice a big change. They're going to
> appreciate a heads-up. The only people who wouldn't consider it news
> are those following this list, and judging by the state of this thread
> you'll already have read 40 posts on the topic, so the 41st won't be
> that big of a deal.
>
> Rich
>

Apologies for butting in as a user:

As a user of Gentoo from about 2002 or so, with multiple gentoo systems,
this thread is the first I have heard of make.conf moving ... cant
imagine I am the only one! and are you about to break our systems
unannounced (again) ? - its not spam to give us a heads up, even if its
just reassurance.

Sorry, but I would rather know.
BillK
 
Old 07-24-2012, 12:18 PM
Fabian Groffen
 
Default news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

On 24-07-2012 20:13:46 +0800, William Kenworthy wrote:
> Apologies for butting in as a user:
>
> As a user of Gentoo from about 2002 or so, with multiple gentoo systems,
> this thread is the first I have heard of make.conf moving ... cant
> imagine I am the only one! and are you about to break our systems
> unannounced (again) ? - its not spam to give us a heads up, even if its
> just reassurance.

I think you misunderstood. Nothing is breaking at this time. Hence I
don't think this is worth asking your attention for.


--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level
 

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