FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Gentoo > Gentoo Development

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 08-02-2012, 05:36 AM
Peter Stuge
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

Walter Dnes wrote:
> The fact that "other distros do it" does not constitute
> justification for us to do it.

Unfortunately that exact reason, along with "Fedora is doing it", was
cited by a very active developer as reason to reject technical points
which I tried to make a few times.

But that is off-topic. Let's leave it for later. All I'm saying is
don't underestimate pack mentality.


//Peter
 
Old 08-02-2012, 05:43 AM
Sergey Popov
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

02.08.2012 04:20, Walter Dnes wrote:
> That's right... the poster was running a POSIX locale for several
> years ***AND DID NOT HAVE ANY PROBLEMS RELATED TO IT***.
This discussion is very similar with one, that i have seen in Russian
Linux community some years ago about migrating from ru_RU.KOI8-R to
ru_RU.UTF-8. Arguments from "KOI8-R guys" were the same - "Why we should
change something if it works?" and they are also did not notice
fundamental problems with some vitally important packages, which can not
be replaced or need to be heavily patched to work properly. Arguments
from "UTF-8 guys" were not ideal, but locale change brokes only old or
unsupported packages, so they win.

P.S. I do not think that comparison with 'initramfs and separate /usr
problem' is correct in this case. Default locale change is evolution,
not revolution...
 
Old 08-02-2012, 06:42 AM
Fabian Groffen
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

On 01-08-2012 21:00:23 -0400, Mike Gilbert wrote:
> Diego mentioned the python issue.

Honestly, if some asian person has whatever charset that I often find in
spam messages, but is not UTF-8, are you then going to tell that person
to switch to UTF-8 to get those python packages emerged? I hope not.

There is a difference between "there is a UTF-8 locale available on the
system" and "en_US.UTF-8 locale is in effect".

Fabian

--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level
 
Old 08-02-2012, 09:14 AM
Stelian Ionescu
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

On Thu, 2012-08-02 at 08:42 +0200, Fabian Groffen wrote:
> On 01-08-2012 21:00:23 -0400, Mike Gilbert wrote:
> > Diego mentioned the python issue.
>
> Honestly, if some asian person has whatever charset that I often find in
> spam messages, but is not UTF-8, are you then going to tell that person
> to switch to UTF-8 to get those python packages emerged? I hope not.

Yes.

--
Stelian Ionescu a.k.a. fe[nl]ix
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib
 
Old 08-02-2012, 06:21 PM
Diego Elio Pettenò
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

On 01/08/2012 23:42, Fabian Groffen wrote:
> Honestly, if some asian person has whatever charset that I often find in
> spam messages, but is not UTF-8, are you then going to tell that person
> to switch to UTF-8 to get those python packages emerged? I hope not.

Tell that to the Python team I guess. My tinderbox _has_ utf8 locales
available, but doesn't set in by default -> Python stuff fails to build
or test -> not going to be fixed with "change your locale" reasoning.

Is it mental? Yes.
Would I like that to change? Yes.
Do I care ẃhether that's through the use of cluebyfour on the Python
team or by setting an utf-8 locale by default? Not in the least.

--
Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
 
Old 08-02-2012, 06:22 PM
Duncan
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

Peter Stuge posted on Thu, 02 Aug 2012 07:36:07 +0200 as excerpted:

> Walter Dnes wrote:
>> The fact that "other distros do it" does not constitute justification
>> for us to do it.
>
> Unfortunately that exact reason, along with "Fedora is doing it", was
> cited by a very active developer as reason to reject technical points
> which I tried to make a few times.
>
> But that is off-topic. Let's leave it for later. All I'm saying is don't
> underestimate pack mentality.

I don't know if it applies here, but there's a difference between "other
distros do it", and "that's the way upstream created it". If upstream is
effectively another distro, the first might be true as well, but gentoo
has always had a policy of trying to do it upstream's way unless there's
a good reason not to, and that's quite different than just following the
distro pack. (You likely know this already, but other readers may not,
so I'm emphasizing it.)

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
 
Old 08-02-2012, 06:32 PM
Mike Gilbert
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò
<flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> On 01/08/2012 23:42, Fabian Groffen wrote:
>> Honestly, if some asian person has whatever charset that I often find in
>> spam messages, but is not UTF-8, are you then going to tell that person
>> to switch to UTF-8 to get those python packages emerged? I hope not.
>
> Tell that to the Python team I guess. My tinderbox _has_ utf8 locales
> available, but doesn't set in by default -> Python stuff fails to build
> or test -> not going to be fixed with "change your locale" reasoning.
>
> Is it mental? Yes.
> Would I like that to change? Yes.
> Do I care ẃhether that's through the use of cluebyfour on the Python
> team or by setting an utf-8 locale by default? Not in the least.
>

Please apply the cluebyfour to the upstream developers of python and
python modules. :-)

I do try to fix unicode problems if I run into them. However,
sometimes it just isn't worth the effort.
 
Old 08-02-2012, 06:45 PM
Alexis Ballier
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

On Thu, 02 Aug 2012 11:21:40 -0700
Diego Elio Petten <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:

> On 01/08/2012 23:42, Fabian Groffen wrote:
> > Honestly, if some asian person has whatever charset that I often
> > find in spam messages, but is not UTF-8, are you then going to tell
> > that person to switch to UTF-8 to get those python packages
> > emerged? I hope not.
>
> Tell that to the Python team I guess. My tinderbox _has_ utf8 locales
> available, but doesn't set in by default -> Python stuff fails to
> build or test -> not going to be fixed with "change your locale"
> reasoning.

not that it is hard to set LC_ALL=sth before running the failing
command, or make the pm do it... we already fix regexp bugs with other
locales (or workaround them by setting LC_ALL=C), it falls under the
same category.
you just need to teach people, and maybe mandate an utf8 locale to be
present; the same way they do not consider estonian alphabet ordering
'broken' they would not consider not having an utf8 locale 'broken',
esp. when said utf8 is far from being optimal in terms of size for asian
languages.

A.
 
Old 08-02-2012, 09:38 PM
Kent Fredric
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

On 31 July 2012 05:33, Michael Orlitzky <michael@orlitzky.com> wrote:
> On 07/30/12 12:28, Michał Górny wrote:
>>
>> My point here is that you want the thing to change. So you first try to
>> convince people here to change. We practically did a small survey here
>> and in the result we didn't agree on doing the change.
>>
>> So you're saying we should do another survey on another group, hoping
>> that this time the result will be on your side.
>
> We didn't do a survey, we asked,
>
> "Is there a reason for not using at least en_US.UTF-8 as a "sane"
> default value?"
>
> Unsurprisingly, the responses contained reasons for not using
> en_US.UTF-8 as the default.
>

I think its a shame that :

1. the current handbook way to change timezone is manually editing a file.
2. the handbook doesn't mention `eselect locale`
3. `eselect locale list` is useless if you have *all* locales available to you.
4. `eselect locale` can only set the LANG variable.
5. that eselect doesn't have an interactive mode yet.

Why? because this problem could be made simpler by providing a way to
use a recommended locale for your timezone, which is likely to yield a
more sane default for that timezone.

It would also make it easier to validate the value the user chooses
for their Timezone value.

Consider:

eselect timezone list
# all level 1 timezones + groups , ie: like ls /usr/share/zoneinfo
eselect timezone list America/
# contents of /usr/share/zoneinfo/America
eselect timezone set America/Chicago
# /etc/timezone is updated to 'America/Chicago'
# /etc/localtime is replaced with /usr/share/zoneinfo/America/Chicago
eselect locale set --all auto
# LANG and LC_* are set using the values defined as "default" for
America/Chicago
eselect locale set --ctype auto
# Only LC_CTYPE is autopopulated.
eselect locale list
# 600 items because you have a vanilla locale.defs
eselect locale list --timezone
# shows a list of LOCALE values for the current TZ, with the one that
would be used as default first/marked up differently
eselect locale list en
# shows english locale options
eselect locale set --ctype en_US.utf8


The benefits of setting these locales this way are obvious to me at
least, you can set locales to a value that is sensible automatically.
You also can validate a users choice of locale and provide feedback,
such as, you can list non-installed locales, and then tell the user if
thy try to use a locale that isn't installed yet they need to update
locales.def

The only way I can suggest something better, would be an interactive
locale setter, something like 'tzselect' , except sets timezone *and*
locale information, with the ability to automatically update
locales.def and add new locale definitions and regenerate the locale
database.

This way, you could have a selection process more like this:

https://gist.github.com/3240866

#? 1

The following information has been given:

United States
Eastern Time

Therefore TZ='America/New_York' will be used.
Local time is now: Thu Aug 2 17:33:17 EDT 2012.
Universal Time is now: Thu Aug 2 21:33:17 UTC 2012.
Is the above information OK?
1) Yes
2) No
#? 1
Your Current locale settings are:

LANG="POSIX"

The recommended settings for your locale are :
LANG="en_US.utf8"
LC_CTYPE="en_US.utf8"

Do you wish to change your locale settings at this time?
1) No
2) Yes - Use recommended settings
3) Yes - Configure locale interactively.

At least this way, the effort required to configure your system into a
very good logical UTF8 default is trivial.

--
Kent

perl -e "print substr( "edrgmaM SPA NOcomil.ic@tfrken", $_ * 3,
3 ) for ( 9,8,0,7,1,6,5,4,3,2 );"

http://kent-fredric.fox.geek.nz
 
Old 08-03-2012, 05:16 AM
Luca Barbato
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

On 07/27/2012 07:24 PM, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> yes, and i'm waiting on the POSIX group to formalize C.UTF-8. that's the only
> real option in my mind for making unicode the default. any other
> amalgamations of various locales is ugly as sin.

When they meet? I'd be fine with a pre-release =P

lu
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 04:36 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org