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Old 07-30-2012, 03:51 PM
"Aaron W. Swenson"
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

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On 07/30/2012 11:04 AM, Michael Mol wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:35:36 -0400 Michael Orlitzky
>> <michael@orlitzky.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/27/12 16:16, Aaron W. Swenson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> No user will be happy with whatever we decide to use as a
>>>> default.
>>>
>>> The defaults should be what's best for the most people, with a
>>> bias towards safety. Why don't we just take a survey and choose
>>> the most common utf8 response?
>>
>> How can you take a survey like that? How will you ensure it
>> actually hits the majority? How will you define the majority?
>
> Serverside script on gentoo.org. Push out a news item with the URL
> and a last-call date. Tabulate the results, using browser
> fingerprints to weed out the bulk of duplicates.
>

I still advocate continuing how we have been.

However, the survey should be one question: What is the output of
`locale' on your workstation/desktop/laptop?

The less painful we make the survey, the more respondents we'll get,
and the less biased the results will be. Additionally, it makes the
responses easy to parse with a script.

Servers are excluded because special things take place there that may
not actually line up with what the user prefers.

If it turns out that C or POSIX is the most common response, we should
then default the locale to en_US.UTF-8 if we really want to default to
a UTF-8 setting. The reason being it makes sense to have the default
locale set to the country of origin, which in our case is the United
States.

Yes, it may irk those whose native locale is not en_US.UTF-8, but like
I said, no one will be happy. Except for those whose native locale
happens to be the default.

Start at a default, doesn't really matter which as long as the default
is the lingua franca of international business, and instruct the user,
as we already do, how to change it during the setup.

- --
Mr. Aaron W. Swenson
Gentoo Linux Developer
Email : titanofold@gentoo.org
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Old 07-30-2012, 04:28 PM
Michał Górny
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:50:29 -0400
Michael Orlitzky <michael@orlitzky.com> wrote:

> On 07/30/12 10:41, Michał Górny wrote:
> > On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:35:36 -0400
> > Michael Orlitzky <michael@orlitzky.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 07/27/12 16:16, Aaron W. Swenson wrote:
> >>>
> >>> No user will be happy with whatever we decide to use as a default.
> >>
> >> The defaults should be what's best for the most people, with a bias
> >> towards safety. Why don't we just take a survey and choose the most
> >> common utf8 response?
> >
> > How can you take a survey like that? How will you ensure it actually
> > hits the majority? How will you define the majority?
> >
>
> Considering that the alternative is to force everyone to change it
> manually, you can do it however you want and it'll be an improvement.

My point here is that you want the thing to change. So you first try to
convince people here to change. We practically did a small survey here
and in the result we didn't agree on doing the change.

So you're saying we should do another survey on another group, hoping
that this time the result will be on your side.

> 1) Create a webpage with a bunch of options, count the results
>
> 2) Ask the g.o mailing lists, count responses manually
>
> 3) Use google docs like the website survey that went out a few days
> ago
>
> It won't hit everyone, but no survey ever does. As long as you get a
> large enough unbiased sample, it doesn't matter. And anything would be
> an improvement, so it doesn't matter anyway.

It depends on who the 'unbiased sample' is. Are you interested only in
opinion of Gentoo users who visit the website? Who sync once a day?
Once a week? Who follow Gentoo Planet? Who participate in the forums?

We can create the survey and announce it everywhere. But it still won't
catch many old-time Gentoo users who can actually have something
opposite to say. It won't be unbiased.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny
 
Old 07-30-2012, 04:57 PM
Michael Mol
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:50:29 -0400
> Michael Orlitzky <michael@orlitzky.com> wrote:
>
>> On 07/30/12 10:41, Michał Górny wrote:
>> > On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:35:36 -0400
>> > Michael Orlitzky <michael@orlitzky.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 07/27/12 16:16, Aaron W. Swenson wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> No user will be happy with whatever we decide to use as a default.
>> >>
>> >> The defaults should be what's best for the most people, with a bias
>> >> towards safety. Why don't we just take a survey and choose the most
>> >> common utf8 response?
>> >
>> > How can you take a survey like that? How will you ensure it actually
>> > hits the majority? How will you define the majority?
>> >
>>
>> Considering that the alternative is to force everyone to change it
>> manually, you can do it however you want and it'll be an improvement.
>
> My point here is that you want the thing to change. So you first try to
> convince people here to change. We practically did a small survey here
> and in the result we didn't agree on doing the change.
>
> So you're saying we should do another survey on another group, hoping
> that this time the result will be on your side.
>
>> 1) Create a webpage with a bunch of options, count the results
>>
>> 2) Ask the g.o mailing lists, count responses manually
>>
>> 3) Use google docs like the website survey that went out a few days
>> ago
>>
>> It won't hit everyone, but no survey ever does. As long as you get a
>> large enough unbiased sample, it doesn't matter. And anything would be
>> an improvement, so it doesn't matter anyway.
>
> It depends on who the 'unbiased sample' is. Are you interested only in
> opinion of Gentoo users who visit the website? Who sync once a day?
> Once a week? Who follow Gentoo Planet? Who participate in the forums?
>
> We can create the survey and announce it everywhere. But it still won't
> catch many old-time Gentoo users who can actually have something
> opposite to say. It won't be unbiased.

I was thinking about this, and I suspect that a survey period of 1-2
months is likely fine. It should also be enough to scoop up people who
run servers and monitor those servers for security updates.

--
:wq
 
Old 07-30-2012, 05:33 PM
Michael Orlitzky
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

On 07/30/12 12:28, Michał Górny wrote:
>
> My point here is that you want the thing to change. So you first try to
> convince people here to change. We practically did a small survey here
> and in the result we didn't agree on doing the change.
>
> So you're saying we should do another survey on another group, hoping
> that this time the result will be on your side.

We didn't do a survey, we asked,

"Is there a reason for not using at least en_US.UTF-8 as a "sane"
default value?"

Unsurprisingly, the responses contained reasons for not using
en_US.UTF-8 as the default.

Don't take my original reply out of context, I don't actually care what
we have as the default.


>
> It depends on who the 'unbiased sample' is. Are you interested only in
> opinion of Gentoo users who visit the website? Who sync once a day?
> Once a week? Who follow Gentoo Planet? Who participate in the forums?
>
> We can create the survey and announce it everywhere. But it still won't
> catch many old-time Gentoo users who can actually have something
> opposite to say. It won't be unbiased.

The technical objection to C.UTF-8 is that it's non-standard, Ok. What
are the technical objections to LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8? If the
alternatives are all improvements, the statistics are irrelevant.
 
Old 07-30-2012, 07:02 PM
"Walter Dnes"
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 01:33:48PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote

> The technical objection to C.UTF-8 is that it's non-standard, Ok.
> What are the technical objections to LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8? If the
> alternatives are all improvements, the statistics are irrelevant.

I ran into a problem several months ago with xfreecell not running.
Turned out the ISO8859-1 fonts were not being generated, just UTF-8.
xfreecell needs ISO8859-1 fonts. And it's not the only package. I
modified xorg-2.eclass so that font packages would build ISO8859-1. See
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/252316/ for the gory
details. Would forcing UTF-8 cause problems for packages that expect
specific ISO encodings in X fonts?

The important part of the eclass mod was to manually enable iso8859-1
and disable all other encodings...

if grep -q -s "disable-all-encodings" ${ECONF_SOURCE:-.}/configure; then
FONT_OPTIONS+="
--enable-iso8859-1
--disable-iso10646
--disable-iso10646-1
--disable-iso8859-2
--disable-iso8859-3
--disable-iso8859-4
--disable-iso8859-5
--disable-iso8859-6
--disable-iso8859-7
--disable-iso8859-8
--disable-iso8859-9
--disable-iso8859-10
--disable-iso8859-11
--disable-iso8859-12
--disable-iso8859-13
--disable-iso8859-14
--disable-iso8859-15
--disable-iso8859-16
--disable-jisx0201
--disable-koi8-r"
else
FONT_OPTIONS+="
--disable-iso10646
--disable-iso10646-1
--disable-iso8859-2
--disable-iso8859-3
--disable-iso8859-4
--disable-iso8859-5
--disable-iso8859-6
--disable-iso8859-7
--disable-iso8859-8
--disable-iso8859-9
--disable-iso8859-10
--disable-iso8859-11
--disable-iso8859-12
--disable-iso8859-13
--disable-iso8859-14
--disable-iso8859-15
--disable-iso8859-16
--disable-jisx0201
--disable-koi8-r"
fi

--
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
 
Old 07-31-2012, 03:16 PM
Michael Orlitzky
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

On 07/30/12 15:02, Walter Dnes wrote:
> Would forcing UTF-8 cause problems for packages that expect
> specific ISO encodings in X fonts?

Not that I know of (and setting a default wouldn't force anything).

xfreecell's readme states "Make sure there is a font named 7x14" and
another thread mentions that this is provided by
media-fonts/font-misc-misc so that sounds like a bug in the ebuild to me.
 
Old 08-01-2012, 08:18 PM
"Andreas K. Huettel"
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

>
> If it turns out that C or POSIX is the most common response, we should
> then default the locale to en_US.UTF-8 if we really want to default to
> a UTF-8 setting. The reason being it makes sense to have the default
> locale set to the country of origin, which in our case is the United
> States.
>

Given the number of Gentoo devs (especially on the desktop side where this
matters most) from other parts of the world, that's not really a valid
argument. In particular in cases as e.g. "Paper size setting", where basically
US stubbornness stands against the rest of the planet.

--

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/
 
Old 08-01-2012, 08:29 PM
Michael Orlitzky
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

On 08/01/12 16:18, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>
>>
>> If it turns out that C or POSIX is the most common response, we should
>> then default the locale to en_US.UTF-8 if we really want to default to
>> a UTF-8 setting. The reason being it makes sense to have the default
>> locale set to the country of origin, which in our case is the United
>> States.
>>
>
> Given the number of Gentoo devs (especially on the desktop side where this
> matters most) from other parts of the world, that's not really a valid
> argument. In particular in cases as e.g. "Paper size setting", where basically
> US stubbornness stands against the rest of the planet.
>

Every locale is wrong for somebody; the idea was that by taking a
survey, you could make it wrong for the least amount of people (by default).

If the majority of users use a stupid paper size, the best default is
still whatever they use regardless of any personal preferences.
 
Old 08-02-2012, 12:20 AM
"Walter Dnes"
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 04:29:42PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote

> Every locale is wrong for somebody; the idea was that by taking
> a survey, you could make it wrong for the least amount of people
> (by default).

Question... has anybody ever considered that maybe a POSIX locale
is wrong for the least amount of people??? There's also a very damning
statement in the post that started this thread...

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:39:59PM +0200, Sascha Cunz wrote
> I recently discovered that I for some reason haven't noticed the
> warning about setting the locale to utf-8 in the gentoo handbook for
> obviously several years; thus i was still running all my systems in
> a POSIX locale since i never cared much about it.
>
> However, since I noticed, I talked to several people about it; all
> of them stating as first response: "Not shipping with a utf-8 locale
> turned on by default nowadays probably is a bug in your distro"

That's right... the poster was running a POSIX locale for several
years ***AND DID NOT HAVE ANY PROBLEMS RELATED TO IT***. Then "several
people said" "Not shipping with a utf-8 locale turned on by default
nowadays probably is a bug in your distro". And suddenly it's a
problem. What's next? Despite running with no problems for many years
with a separate /usr and no initramfs, will we have "several people"
come along and tell us that it's a bug in our distro? Oh... wait...

The fact that "other distros do it" does not constitute justification
for us to do it. If I wanted to run Redhat or Ubuntu, I'd run Redhat or
Ubuntu. We're ignoring a very basic question here... what problems does
shipping with a POSIX locale cause that would be fixed by setting a UTF8
default locale??? I want a real answer. Not something along the lines
of "But daddy, all the other kids are doing it".

--
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
 
Old 08-02-2012, 01:00 AM
Mike Gilbert
 
Default UTF-8 locale by default

On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 8:20 PM, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
> We're ignoring a very basic question here... what problems does
> shipping with a POSIX locale cause that would be fixed by setting a UTF8
> default locale??? I want a real answer. Not something along the lines
> of "But daddy, all the other kids are doing it".
>

Try reading the rest of the thread before posting a rant.

Diego mentioned the python issue. As well, there are many test suites
that malfunction without a UTF-8 or en_US.UTF-8 locale. If you hunt
through Bugzilla, you can probably dig up other issues.
 

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