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Old 06-23-2012, 05:43 PM
Pacho Ramos
 
Default RFC: PROPERTIES=funky-slots

El sßb, 23-06-2012 a las 18:30 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh escribiˇ:
> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:23:57 +0200
> Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Did you send this proposal seriously or only to troll comparing it
> > with what you think tommy did with multilib thread?
>
> Uhm, this proposal is exactly in line with dozens of others that have
> been made for EAPI 5. It's simple, low impact and easy to understand.
> Please explain for everyone's benefit how you think this proposal is in
> any way different to the EBUILD_PHASE_FUNC proposal, or the usex
> proposal, or the silent rules proposal.
>
> > If this is seriously, could you explain more how paludis behave in
> > this case? Looks like it treats SLOT with major number as latest
> > version, that is not always true and I don't understand why it should
> > be always true as there are cases where upstream could release newer
> > 3.0.x releases that are really newer than 3.1.x versions.
>
> It treats -r300 as being newer than -r200, and so will treat "the gtk3
> version" or "the jruby version" as being newer versions of "the gtk2
> version" or "the ruby 1.8 version", just as it tries to bring in a
> newer GCC and so on.
>

And what problems is that causing for you?
 
Old 06-23-2012, 05:45 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default RFC: PROPERTIES=funky-slots

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:43:10 +0200
Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > It treats -r300 as being newer than -r200, and so will treat "the
> > gtk3 version" or "the jruby version" as being newer versions of
> > "the gtk2 version" or "the ruby 1.8 version", just as it tries to
> > bring in a newer GCC and so on.
>
> And what problems is that causing for you?

The problem is that there's no way of knowing that -r300 is not "a
newer version" than -r200, and that the jruby implementation is not "a
newer version" than the ruby 1.8 implementation.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 06-23-2012, 05:54 PM
Michał Górny
 
Default RFC: PROPERTIES=funky-slots

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:45:46 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:43:10 +0200
> Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > It treats -r300 as being newer than -r200, and so will treat "the
> > > gtk3 version" or "the jruby version" as being newer versions of
> > > "the gtk2 version" or "the ruby 1.8 version", just as it tries to
> > > bring in a newer GCC and so on.
> >
> > And what problems is that causing for you?
>
> The problem is that there's no way of knowing that -r300 is not "a
> newer version" than -r200

It is a newer version. That's why it has a newer revision.

> and that the jruby implementation is not "a
> newer version" than the ruby 1.8 implementation.

And that's another thing which is ugly and should be replaced by
something sane rather than worked around.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny
 
Old 06-23-2012, 05:56 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default RFC: PROPERTIES=funky-slots

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:54:13 +0200
Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:45:46 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:43:10 +0200
> > Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > > It treats -r300 as being newer than -r200, and so will treat
> > > > "the gtk3 version" or "the jruby version" as being newer
> > > > versions of "the gtk2 version" or "the ruby 1.8 version", just
> > > > as it tries to bring in a newer GCC and so on.
> > >
> > > And what problems is that causing for you?
> >
> > The problem is that there's no way of knowing that -r300 is not "a
> > newer version" than -r200
>
> It is a newer version. That's why it has a newer revision.

That's just it, though -- this no longer holds. -r300 is now being used
for something that is exactly the same version as -r200.

> > and that the jruby implementation is not "a
> > newer version" than the ruby 1.8 implementation.
>
> And that's another thing which is ugly and should be replaced by
> something sane rather than worked around.

I agree. But until that happens, which probably isn't going to be
anytime soon, we need to know where something weird is happening, and
that's what this proposal provides.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 06-23-2012, 05:57 PM
Pacho Ramos
 
Default RFC: PROPERTIES=funky-slots

El sßb, 23-06-2012 a las 18:45 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh escribiˇ:
> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:43:10 +0200
> Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > It treats -r300 as being newer than -r200, and so will treat "the
> > > gtk3 version" or "the jruby version" as being newer versions of
> > > "the gtk2 version" or "the ruby 1.8 version", just as it tries to
> > > bring in a newer GCC and so on.
> >
> > And what problems is that causing for you?
>
> The problem is that there's no way of knowing that -r300 is not "a
> newer version" than -r200, and that the jruby implementation is not "a
> newer version" than the ruby 1.8 implementation.
>

Regarding -r300 issue (I don't know much about ruby), I guess paludis
wants to install net-libs/webkit-gtk-1.8.1-r301 for example when nothing
is requiring any specific SLOT? What problems does it cause apart of
what would cause if ebuilds using gtk2 are RDEPENDing on plain
x11-libs/gtk+ without specifying any SLOT? In both cases gtk2 apps
should RDEPEND specifically in SLOTs for gtk2 support and gtk3 apps on
gtk3 slots.
 
Old 06-23-2012, 06:06 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default RFC: PROPERTIES=funky-slots

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 20:09:03 +0200
Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > That's just it, though -- this no longer holds. -r300 is now being
> > used for something that is exactly the same version as -r200.
>
> Did you look at SONAME?

Look at SONAME before deciding what package to install? Kindly explain
how that works.

> > > > and that the jruby implementation is not "a
> > > > newer version" than the ruby 1.8 implementation.
> > >
> > > And that's another thing which is ugly and should be replaced by
> > > something sane rather than worked around.
> >
> > I agree. But until that happens, which probably isn't going to be
> > anytime soon, we need to know where something weird is happening,
> > and that's what this proposal provides.
>
> Yes, let's introduce some random 'funky' word for a single ebuild.
> Or.. since it's just a single package, maybe you would just add an
> ignore list to paludis.

a) it's not a single package, and b) ignore lists in a package manager
is a terrible idea.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 06-23-2012, 06:09 PM
Michał Górny
 
Default RFC: PROPERTIES=funky-slots

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:56:42 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:54:13 +0200
> Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:45:46 +0100
> > Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:43:10 +0200
> > > Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > > > It treats -r300 as being newer than -r200, and so will treat
> > > > > "the gtk3 version" or "the jruby version" as being newer
> > > > > versions of "the gtk2 version" or "the ruby 1.8 version", just
> > > > > as it tries to bring in a newer GCC and so on.
> > > >
> > > > And what problems is that causing for you?
> > >
> > > The problem is that there's no way of knowing that -r300 is not "a
> > > newer version" than -r200
> >
> > It is a newer version. That's why it has a newer revision.
>
> That's just it, though -- this no longer holds. -r300 is now being
> used for something that is exactly the same version as -r200.

Did you look at SONAME?

> > > and that the jruby implementation is not "a
> > > newer version" than the ruby 1.8 implementation.
> >
> > And that's another thing which is ugly and should be replaced by
> > something sane rather than worked around.
>
> I agree. But until that happens, which probably isn't going to be
> anytime soon, we need to know where something weird is happening, and
> that's what this proposal provides.

Yes, let's introduce some random 'funky' word for a single ebuild. Or..
since it's just a single package, maybe you would just add an ignore
list to paludis.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny
 
Old 06-23-2012, 06:22 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default RFC: PROPERTIES=funky-slots

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 20:23:13 +0200
Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:06:38 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 20:09:03 +0200
> > Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > > That's just it, though -- this no longer holds. -r300 is now
> > > > being used for something that is exactly the same version as
> > > > -r200.
> > >
> > > Did you look at SONAME?
> >
> > Look at SONAME before deciding what package to install? Kindly
> > explain how that works.
>
> I'm just saying that these are two different versions of the package.
> If you want GTK+3, you take the newer one. If you want GTK+2 compat,
> you take the older slot. What's wrong with that?

The package mangler does not know that 1.1-r300 is not a "better"
version than 1.1-r200, or that 1.2-r200 is not a "better" version than
1.1-r300. Indicating packages where this kind of strangeness happens
allows manglers to know that things that are usually true about the
relationship between slots and versions no longer hold, and that in
these specific cases it should consider slots to be heavily independent.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 06-23-2012, 06:23 PM
Michał Górny
 
Default RFC: PROPERTIES=funky-slots

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:06:38 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 20:09:03 +0200
> Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > That's just it, though -- this no longer holds. -r300 is now being
> > > used for something that is exactly the same version as -r200.
> >
> > Did you look at SONAME?
>
> Look at SONAME before deciding what package to install? Kindly explain
> how that works.

I'm just saying that these are two different versions of the package.
If you want GTK+3, you take the newer one. If you want GTK+2 compat,
you take the older slot. What's wrong with that?

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny
 
Old 06-23-2012, 06:35 PM
Alex Alexander
 
Default RFC: PROPERTIES=funky-slots

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Ciaran McCreesh
<ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 20:23:13 +0200
> Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:06:38 +0100
>> Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> > On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 20:09:03 +0200
>> > Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> > > > That's just it, though -- this no longer holds. -r300 is now
>> > > > being used for something that is exactly the same version as
>> > > > -r200.
>> > >
>> > > Did you look at SONAME?
>> >
>> > Look at SONAME before deciding what package to install? Kindly
>> > explain how that works.
>>
>> I'm just saying that these are two different versions of the package.
>> If you want GTK+3, you take the newer one. If you want GTK+2 compat,
>> you take the older slot. What's wrong with that?
>
> The package mangler does not know that 1.1-r300 is not a "better"
> version than 1.1-r200, or that 1.2-r200 is not a "better" version than
> 1.1-r300. Indicating packages where this kind of strangeness happens
> allows manglers to know that things that are usually true about the
> relationship between slots and versions no longer hold, and that in
> these specific cases it should consider slots to be heavily independent.

You already have this info, it's called a "slot dependency".

--
Alex
 

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