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Old 06-20-2012, 05:07 PM
Michał Górny
 
Default Optional runtime dependencies via runtime-switchable USE flags

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 18:57:19 +0200
hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:

> >> 2. Afais useflags that are already in IUSE and used for build-time
> >> stuff must not be used for IUSE_RUNTIME too.
> >> This is a random rule IMO. I don't have many cases in mind where
> >> this would be annoying (could think of "debug" enabling some
> >> in-source switches and adding optional debug tools in RDEPEND.
> >> Having one flag here would make it cleaner and tighter for the
> >> user to interact with useflags.).
> >> However... this is not a logical rule, rather a technical issue. If
> >> there is a way to avoid this restriction that would be nice.
> >
> > I do not see where you are going with this. If it makes sense to
> > turn on the build-time support for a feature without installing all
> > the dependencies then the extra dependencies should go behind a
> > separate USE flag (and that separate USE flag may depend on the USE
> > flag controlling the build-time support using REQUIRED_USE). Or
> > perhaps the additional dependencies should be in some new kind of
> > "suggested" depend.
>
> I think it is bad to overuse REQUIRED_USE in that way. REQUIRED_USE
> blocks the emerge process and should only be used when there is a
> technical (not logical) useflag correlation.
>
> Using a seperate USE flag just because the name is blocked means the
> user has to look up another useflag and think about what it is for.
>
> But as I said... that is rather minor. I just don't like it either,
> cause I feel it might annoy me in the future.
>
> What do you think about useflag expansion and seperating them in
> make.conf like yngwin suggested:
>
> USE_RUNTIME="debug" -> will enable "runtime_debug" useflag for all
> ebuilds USE="debug" -> will enable "debug" useflag for all ebuilds
>
> This would also solve point #1 somehow, cause you don't have to fear
> that your dependency graph will grow just because you didn't examine
> all newly introduced IUSE_RUNTIME flags.
>
> For people who want that stuff unconditionally they could do:
> USE_RUNTIME="$USE"
>
> and never bother again with it.

Please read the rationale. Again. The whole thing. Three times.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny
 
Old 06-20-2012, 05:11 PM
hasufell
 
Default Optional runtime dependencies via runtime-switchable USE flags

On 06/20/2012 07:07 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> Please read the rationale. Again. The whole thing. Three times.
>

Please read my suggestions. Again. The whole thing. Three times.
 
Old 06-20-2012, 05:24 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default Optional runtime dependencies via runtime-switchable USE flags

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 19:11:33 +0200
hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 06/20/2012 07:07 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> > Please read the rationale. Again. The whole thing. Three times.
>
> Please read my suggestions. Again. The whole thing. Three times.

Can we all agree to just stop this and just restrict the arguing to
being between SDEPEND and DEPENDENCIES? Cheers.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 06-20-2012, 06:53 PM
Ralph Sennhauser
 
Default Optional runtime dependencies via runtime-switchable USE flags

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 18:24:33 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Can we all agree to just stop this and just restrict the arguing to
> being between SDEPEND and DEPENDENCIES? Cheers.

I clearly favour going with SDEPEND now as this fits better what people
are used to and the move to DEPENDENCIES is also a chance to clean up
dep-specs after we added all quirks we need(*). Let's name GLEP 54 here
which we hopefully can add to EAPI 6.

(*) or for when we run out of special chars
 
Old 06-21-2012, 07:29 AM
Michał Górny
 
Default Optional runtime dependencies via runtime-switchable USE flags

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 18:24:33 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 19:11:33 +0200
> hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > On 06/20/2012 07:07 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> > > Please read the rationale. Again. The whole thing. Three times.
> >
> > Please read my suggestions. Again. The whole thing. Three times.
>
> Can we all agree to just stop this and just restrict the arguing to
> being between SDEPEND and DEPENDENCIES? Cheers.

You just volunteered to write portage patches. Cheers.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny
 
Old 06-21-2012, 07:30 AM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default Optional runtime dependencies via runtime-switchable USE flags

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 09:29:49 +0200
Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 18:24:33 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 19:11:33 +0200
> > hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > On 06/20/2012 07:07 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> > > > Please read the rationale. Again. The whole thing. Three times.
> > >
> > > Please read my suggestions. Again. The whole thing. Three times.
> >
> > Can we all agree to just stop this and just restrict the arguing to
> > being between SDEPEND and DEPENDENCIES? Cheers.
>
> You just volunteered to write portage patches. Cheers.

Both were already implemented in Paludis, if you're looking for a
reference implementation to try it out. There are also examples of
use of SDEPEND in the old kdebuilds, and of DEPENDENCIES in Exherbo. I
can give you a small patch to turn SDEPEND on for an EAPI if you like
(it's just a one line addition to the EAPI definition file).

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 06-21-2012, 07:41 AM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default Optional runtime dependencies via runtime-switchable USE flags

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 09:42:36 +0200
Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > You just volunteered to write portage patches. Cheers.
> >
> > Both were already implemented in Paludis, if you're looking for a
> > reference implementation to try it out. There are also examples of
> > use of SDEPEND in the old kdebuilds, and of DEPENDENCIES in
> > Exherbo. I can give you a small patch to turn SDEPEND on for an
> > EAPI if you like (it's just a one line addition to the EAPI
> > definition file).
>
> Wait, did I just write to exherbo ml? No, don't think so. 'Implemented
> in Paludis' doesn't work here. We're discussing Gentoo features,
> and official package manager in Gentoo is portage. If you don't
> believe me, check out the docs.

And since when was "Implemented in Portage" a requirement for an EAPI
feature?

The "implementation" requirement is to avoid REQUIRED_USE-like screwups.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 06-21-2012, 07:42 AM
Michał Górny
 
Default Optional runtime dependencies via runtime-switchable USE flags

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 08:30:24 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 09:29:49 +0200
> Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 18:24:33 +0100
> > Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 19:11:33 +0200
> > > hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > > On 06/20/2012 07:07 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> > > > > Please read the rationale. Again. The whole thing. Three
> > > > > times.
> > > >
> > > > Please read my suggestions. Again. The whole thing. Three times.
> > >
> > > Can we all agree to just stop this and just restrict the arguing
> > > to being between SDEPEND and DEPENDENCIES? Cheers.
> >
> > You just volunteered to write portage patches. Cheers.
>
> Both were already implemented in Paludis, if you're looking for a
> reference implementation to try it out. There are also examples of
> use of SDEPEND in the old kdebuilds, and of DEPENDENCIES in Exherbo. I
> can give you a small patch to turn SDEPEND on for an EAPI if you like
> (it's just a one line addition to the EAPI definition file).

Wait, did I just write to exherbo ml? No, don't think so. 'Implemented
in Paludis' doesn't work here. We're discussing Gentoo features,
and official package manager in Gentoo is portage. If you don't believe
me, check out the docs.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny
 
Old 06-21-2012, 08:54 AM
Michał Górny
 
Default Optional runtime dependencies via runtime-switchable USE flags

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 08:41:23 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 09:42:36 +0200
> Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > > You just volunteered to write portage patches. Cheers.
> > >
> > > Both were already implemented in Paludis, if you're looking for a
> > > reference implementation to try it out. There are also examples of
> > > use of SDEPEND in the old kdebuilds, and of DEPENDENCIES in
> > > Exherbo. I can give you a small patch to turn SDEPEND on for an
> > > EAPI if you like (it's just a one line addition to the EAPI
> > > definition file).
> >
> > Wait, did I just write to exherbo ml? No, don't think so.
> > 'Implemented in Paludis' doesn't work here. We're discussing Gentoo
> > features, and official package manager in Gentoo is portage. If you
> > don't believe me, check out the docs.
>
> And since when was "Implemented in Portage" a requirement for an EAPI
> feature?

Remember EAPI4 and features which had reference implementation not
in portage?

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny
 
Old 06-21-2012, 08:56 AM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default Optional runtime dependencies via runtime-switchable USE flags

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 10:54:19 +0200
Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > And since when was "Implemented in Portage" a requirement for an
> > EAPI feature?
>
> Remember EAPI4 and features which had reference implementation not
> in portage?

Actually, yes, since that was "most of them". Nearly all of them got
implemented quickly. Our policy on this has always been "ask Zac
whether he thinks they're reasonably quick to implement".

But you know this, so kindly keep your disruption to places where
you're right.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 

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