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Old 06-16-2012, 04:30 PM
Pacho Ramos
 
Default About using USE flags to pull in needed RDEPENDs being discouraged by devmanual

El sáb, 16-06-2012 a las 18:09 +0200, hasufell escribió:
> It breaks the useflag philosophy, IMO.
>
> Useflags were meant as switches. You can turn things on and off. Pulling
> in optional dependencies via useflags does not allow the user to turn
> something off when he sets USE="-foo" emerge fuqbar.
> That should only be valid for virtuals or meta-packages. And that's what
> those are for.
>

Maybe we could split them from RDEPEND to some kind of EXTRA_DEPEND (or
something else) to fit this purpose.

> It's not that important if there is a linkage IMO (like the devmanual
> says), cause that may not apply to all languages/usecases, but it MUST
> change what gets installed.
>
> > 1. We rely in people reading the message to get package working ok.
>
> Yes, we should rely on that.

The problem of relying on that is, for example, following situation:
1. I install all my system without thinking on USB modems as I don't
have one.
2. Months after that, I need its support, but I need to figure out I
need to manually emerge sys-apps/usb_modeswitch to get it used by
modemmanager, as I don't rebuild net-misc/modemmanager every day, I get
no notification at all to know I need to emerge that package.

>
> > 2. If user emerges ppp, it will be recorded in world file and, then, if
> > in the future he removes bluez, emerge --depclean want clean no longer
> > needed ppp and then, people end up with a lot of packages they needed
> > to manually emerge some year but that they problem no longer need at all.
>
> It's not our job to maintain users world files.
>
>

Even for me I tend to periodically check world files of machines I
maintain, and it's tedious, we shouldn't promote people to easily
contaminate their world files. Currently, most people will end up having
a lot of unneeded packages installed in their systems after years of
usage due this way of happily telling people to install some random
packages to get extra support.
 
Old 06-16-2012, 04:42 PM
hasufell
 
Default About using USE flags to pull in needed RDEPENDs being discouraged by devmanual

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 06/16/2012 06:30 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> El sáb, 16-06-2012 a las 18:09 +0200, hasufell escribió:
>> It breaks the useflag philosophy, IMO.
>>
>> Useflags were meant as switches. You can turn things on and off.
>> Pulling in optional dependencies via useflags does not allow the
>> user to turn something off when he sets USE="-foo" emerge
>> fuqbar. That should only be valid for virtuals or meta-packages.
>> And that's what those are for.
>>
>
> Maybe we could split them from RDEPEND to some kind of EXTRA_DEPEND
> (or something else) to fit this purpose.

I would like the idea of having EXTRA_DEPEND which will then
automatically be elogged in pkg_postinst and maybe recorded in a
seperate file in /var/lib/portage?
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Old 06-16-2012, 05:55 PM
Samuli Suominen
 
Default About using USE flags to pull in needed RDEPENDs being discouraged by devmanual

On 06/16/2012 06:59 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:

This was noticed recently when getting:
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=420569

Also hit this problem today while trying to bump bluez and noticed we
are using elog messages to tell people to manually install
net-dialup/ppp if they want ppp working with bluez.

I am unsure about the disadvantages of simply using, for example, "ppp"
USE flag to do that. One important disadvantage of current "elog message
way" is that:
1. We rely in people reading the message to get package working ok.
2. If user emerges ppp, it will be recorded in world file and, then, if
in the future he removes bluez, emerge --depclean want clean no longer
needed ppp and then, people end up with a lot of packages they needed to
manually emerge some year but that they problem no longer need at all.

Thanks for your thoughts



why not get this finally entirely out of the way:

suggested/recommended dependencies support, like SDEPEND,
http://bugs.gentoo.org/327701


as in, threat them as RDEPEND if user has the option to pull them in
enabled, otherwise print an uniformed postinst message


as a bonus, this solution would also allow USE dependencies to work and
would replace some cases of 'has_version foo/bar[use]'


- Samuli
 
Old 06-16-2012, 06:49 PM
Pacho Ramos
 
Default About using USE flags to pull in needed RDEPENDs being discouraged by devmanual

El sáb, 16-06-2012 a las 19:07 +0200, Michał Górny escribió:
> On Sat, 16 Jun 2012 18:30:55 +0200
> Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> > El sáb, 16-06-2012 a las 18:09 +0200, hasufell escribió:
> > > It breaks the useflag philosophy, IMO.
> > >
> > > Useflags were meant as switches. You can turn things on and off.
> > > Pulling in optional dependencies via useflags does not allow the
> > > user to turn something off when he sets USE="-foo" emerge fuqbar.
> > > That should only be valid for virtuals or meta-packages. And that's
> > > what those are for.
> > >
> >
> > Maybe we could split them from RDEPEND to some kind of EXTRA_DEPEND
> > (or something else) to fit this purpose.
>
> There was already a lot of discussion about this and the community
> didn't care enough to agree on one of the proposed solutions. You're
> just reinventing one of them, with a new variable name and the same
> disadvantages.
>

Do you have a link to that old thread? Because current situation of
relying on elog messages also has disadvantages
 
Old 06-16-2012, 06:52 PM
Pacho Ramos
 
Default About using USE flags to pull in needed RDEPENDs being discouraged by devmanual

El sáb, 16-06-2012 a las 19:50 +0200, Peter Stuge escribió:
> Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > Also hit this problem today while trying to bump bluez and noticed we
> > are using elog messages to tell people to manually install
> > net-dialup/ppp if they want ppp working with bluez.
> >
> > I am unsure about the disadvantages of simply using, for example,
> > "ppp" USE flag to do that.
>
> I guess the point is that it is not really a dependency. bluez works
> fine without ppp, it does not need to be rebuilt to use ppp later,
> and ppp is only needed when user wants to use both together.
>

No, it's a dependency only when you want ppp support working, if you
won't use it, you won't simply notice it won't work due missing
dependency

> I think it fits to emerge them separately. It seems reasonable not to
> USE for other packages which are merely possible to combine, but
> which don't make for a strict dependency.
>
>
> > 1. We rely in people reading the message to get package working ok.
>
> I dunno if a USE flag is much better? Both require the user to inform
> herself in the same way ("when do I need USE=ppp for bluez" vs. "when
> do I need to emerge ppp") and take action in the same context (set
> USE=ppp for bluez vs. emerge ppp after bluez)..
>
>

It's much easier to widely set "ppp" USE in make.conf to be sure ppp
support works for all things in my system that needing to rebuild
affected package to see elog message telling me that I need to manually
emerge some other package

> > 2. If user emerges ppp, it will be recorded in world file and, then, if
> > in the future he removes bluez, emerge --depclean want clean no longer
> > needed ppp and then, people end up with a lot of packages they needed
> > to manually emerge some year but that they problem no longer need at
> > all.
>
> Disk is pretty cheap. If the package is never being used and the user
> doesn't care to remove it then the package doesn't do any harm IMO,
> and as mentioned I think it's difficult for the package manager to
> know what the user has installed on the system but no longer needs..
>
>
> //Peter

What kind of argument is "disk is pretty cheap". I still administrate a
laptop with a 250GB of disk space, and that space cannot be as large if
you have a lot of files at home. Also, you are missing that having
unneeded packages in world file will also cause them to be updated on
every system updated, with the time it takes for compile.
 
Old 06-16-2012, 06:54 PM
Pacho Ramos
 
Default About using USE flags to pull in needed RDEPENDs being discouraged by devmanual

El sáb, 16-06-2012 a las 20:55 +0300, Samuli Suominen escribió:
> On 06/16/2012 06:59 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > This was noticed recently when getting:
> > https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=420569
> >
> > Also hit this problem today while trying to bump bluez and noticed we
> > are using elog messages to tell people to manually install
> > net-dialup/ppp if they want ppp working with bluez.
> >
> > I am unsure about the disadvantages of simply using, for example, "ppp"
> > USE flag to do that. One important disadvantage of current "elog message
> > way" is that:
> > 1. We rely in people reading the message to get package working ok.
> > 2. If user emerges ppp, it will be recorded in world file and, then, if
> > in the future he removes bluez, emerge --depclean want clean no longer
> > needed ppp and then, people end up with a lot of packages they needed to
> > manually emerge some year but that they problem no longer need at all.
> >
> > Thanks for your thoughts
> >
>
> why not get this finally entirely out of the way:
>
> suggested/recommended dependencies support, like SDEPEND,
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/327701
>
> as in, threat them as RDEPEND if user has the option to pull them in
> enabled, otherwise print an uniformed postinst message
>
> as a bonus, this solution would also allow USE dependencies to work and
> would replace some cases of 'has_version foo/bar[use]'
>
> - Samuli
>
>

Looks fine to me, this must be the previous solution referred by mgorny,
but fail to see any comment there about that disadvantages that this
solution could have :/
 
Old 06-16-2012, 10:07 PM
Duncan
 
Default About using USE flags to pull in needed RDEPENDs being discouraged by devmanual

Pacho Ramos posted on Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:52:33 +0200 as excerpted:

> What kind of argument is "disk is pretty cheap". I still administrate a
> laptop with a 250GB of disk space, and that space cannot be as large if
> you have a lot of files at home. Also, you are missing that having
> unneeded packages in world file will also cause them to be updated on
> every system updated, with the time it takes for compile.

Heh, and then there's netbooks. I got one of the first with a real sata-
based connector and a 120 gig hard drive. Sure, I could replace it now,
and may well do so some day, but the 120 gig works fine for what I need
ATM. But of course many of the first netbooks had 2, 4, 8, 16 gig SSDs.
That's REALLY tight, even if you're doing the actual builds in a build-
image on a different system and just rsyncing, so no portage tree, etc.

Meanwhile, very good point on the continual updates. It's just that cost
that encourages gentoo users, over time, to trim down to the package set
they actually use. In this context, that certainly means users would
unmerge ppp if they knew about it when they no longer needed it, but
knowing about it is the problem. (Of course here I've solved that using
sets as discussed in a different reply, but they're not yet available to
the stable gentooer, and the way it looks, may remain that way for
years...)

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
 
Old 06-17-2012, 01:35 AM
hasufell
 
Default About using USE flags to pull in needed RDEPENDs being discouraged by devmanual

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 06/16/2012 08:14 PM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> Suggested dependencies were used in the old kdebuilds, and Exherbo
> makes extensive use of both suggested and recommended dependencies,
> so there are plenty of examples, spec wording and an implementation
> already if you want to play.
>

I don't want to install Exherbo to see an example. Archlinux also has
a nice implementation about optional dependencies and I don't care
about that either.

This is about a gentoo specific implementation and I am still not
clear about how that proposed SDEPEND would look like.
Are useflags allowed for those too? How do I "activate" it? Via a
seperate config file in /etc/portage, is it a FEATURE? what what what
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Old 06-17-2012, 03:07 AM
Dale
 
Default About using USE flags to pull in needed RDEPENDs being discouraged by devmanual

Duncan wrote:
>
> Looking at the broader picture, the problem of extraneous packages in the
> world file has always concerned me. If it were to be done over again,
> and I think Zac would likely agree, emerge would use --oneshot by
> default, so as not to contaminate the world file unnecessarily. Then
> there'd be a different option (say -2) to add the package to the world
> file if that's what was actually intended.
>
> That's actually how I have my emerge front-end scriptlets/aliases setup
> here. -1 is the default; if I want it in the world file I use the *2
> script variant, which omits the -1.
>
> But of course changing behavior in mid-stream doesn't work so well, so
> emerge continues to stick stuff in the world file by default.
>

I added -1 to my make.conf a long time ago. Whenever I emerge something
and want it in the world file, just use the --select option. If I
already emerged something but then want to add it to the world file,
just add the -n option too. That keeps the world file clean and I can
test things before adding anything to the world file.

Dale

:-) :-)

--
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output? Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"
 
Old 06-17-2012, 11:57 AM
Pacho Ramos
 
Default About using USE flags to pull in needed RDEPENDs being discouraged by devmanual

El sáb, 16-06-2012 a las 22:36 +0200, Michał Górny escribió:
> On Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:49:10 +0200
> Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> > El sáb, 16-06-2012 a las 19:07 +0200, Michał Górny escribió:
> > > On Sat, 16 Jun 2012 18:30:55 +0200
> > > Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > El sáb, 16-06-2012 a las 18:09 +0200, hasufell escribió:
> > > > > It breaks the useflag philosophy, IMO.
> > > > >
> > > > > Useflags were meant as switches. You can turn things on and off.
> > > > > Pulling in optional dependencies via useflags does not allow the
> > > > > user to turn something off when he sets USE="-foo" emerge
> > > > > fuqbar. That should only be valid for virtuals or
> > > > > meta-packages. And that's what those are for.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Maybe we could split them from RDEPEND to some kind of
> > > > EXTRA_DEPEND (or something else) to fit this purpose.
> > >
> > > There was already a lot of discussion about this and the community
> > > didn't care enough to agree on one of the proposed solutions. You're
> > > just reinventing one of them, with a new variable name and the same
> > > disadvantages.
> > >
> >
> > Do you have a link to that old thread? Because current situation of
> > relying on elog messages also has disadvantages
>
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/71794

Thanks

From this one looks like:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/71889
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/71827

are interesting approaches. Personally, SDEPEND approach looks really
interesting to me, maybe it's only problem would be how to explain that
some extra packages are needed without requiring to elog, but looks like
exherbo already implements a solution for this. Other think I would like
to see in this approach is to add a way to *globally* configure PM to
always accept or discard extra deps by default (even still being able to
configure it per package as already suggested)

> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/72162
>

If it's too difficult to implement first EAPI solution ok, but I really
would prefer the EAPI way instead of using eclass to show more postinst
messages instead as I really prefer this to be handled in a more
automatic/configurable way. Also, only packages currently needing to use
elog messages for this kind of problem would need to be updated to
latest EAPI.
 

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