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Old 03-31-2012, 11:00 AM
Patrick Lauer
 
Default Happy 10th birthday (in advance)

On 03/31/12 17:52, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:44:03 +0300
> Alex Alexander <alex.alexander@gmail.com> wrote:
>> @preserved-libs works very well and is awesome. hack or not. IMO it
>> should be in stable already. I've been using it on stable production
>> boxes for years without any issues
>
> ...and here we see the problem. You think that "I haven't noticed it
> break" means "it works".
>
> The problem with preserved-libs (and emerge --jobs, for that matter) is
> that the design is "I can think of a few ways where it might break, so
> I'll hard-code in special cases to handle those, but in general I
> can't think of what other problems there are so it's fine". That's a
> bad way of doing things.
>
Good enough is the worst enemy of perfect.

While we have s 98% solution that doesn't handle all corner cases you
have a theoretical construct in your brain that might in theory cover
100% of all cases, but it's in your brain where I can't use it, so ...
I'll take the pragmatic approach and use what works.
 
Old 03-31-2012, 11:44 AM
Samuli Suominen
 
Default Happy 10th birthday (in advance)

On 03/31/2012 01:06 PM, Brian Harring wrote:

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 10:52:53AM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:44:03 +0300
Alex Alexander<alex.alexander@gmail.com> wrote:

@preserved-libs works very well and is awesome. hack or not. IMO it
should be in stable already. I've been using it on stable production
boxes for years without any issues


...and here we see the problem. You think that "I haven't noticed it
break" means "it works".

The problem with preserved-libs (and emerge --jobs, for that matter) is
that the design is "I can think of a few ways where it might break, so
I'll hard-code in special cases to handle those, but in general I
can't think of what other problems there are so it's fine". That's a
bad way of doing things.


Then don't use it. Reality is, gentoo does.

If you don't like that fact, I suggest you stick to exherbo.

Related, why the hell are you still even around here?

You literally send more mail to our dev ml then to exherbos.

I wouldn't care if it weren't the fact your gentoo dev posts
generally consist of "xyz is stupid, as is the people behind it"
whether it be portage, udev, council, etc, take your pick.

~harring (being rather tired of the broken record).



separate gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-dev-public@ MLs so we would have a place
where to discuss about improving Gentoo with people who also want to
improve it


(or hand me powers to remove people from ML :-)

- Samuli
 
Old 03-31-2012, 11:49 AM
Duncan
 
Default Happy 10th birthday (in advance)

Ciaran McCreesh posted on Sat, 31 Mar 2012 10:52:53 +0100 as excerpted:

> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:44:03 +0300 Alex Alexander
> <alex.alexander@gmail.com> wrote:
>> @preserved-libs works very well and is awesome. hack or not. IMO it
>> should be in stable already. I've been using it on stable production
>> boxes for years without any issues
>
> ...and here we see the problem. You think that "I haven't noticed it
> break" means "it works".

Funny how familiar that argument looks... aka...

A separate /usr is already broken, you just don't know it yet.


Or was drawing attention to that your intent and I just missed the
invisible <sarcasm> tags. =:^)

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
 
Old 03-31-2012, 12:08 PM
Alex Alexander
 
Default Happy 10th birthday (in advance)

On Mar 31, 2012 12:57 PM, "Ciaran McCreesh" <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:

>

> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:44:03 +0300

> Alex Alexander <alex.alexander@gmail.com> wrote:

> > @preserved-libs works very well and is awesome. hack or not. IMO it

> > should be in stable already. I've been using it on stable production

> > boxes for years without any issues

>

> ...and here we see the problem. You think that "I haven't noticed it

> break" means "it works".

>

> The problem with preserved-libs (and emerge --jobs, for that matter) is

> that the design is "I can think of a few ways where it might break, so

> I'll hard-code in special cases to handle those, but in general I

> can't think of what other problems there are so it's fine". That's a

> bad way of doing things.

>

> --

> Ciaran McCreesh


No. I didn't say I think it works, I said I have proof it works.


You can argue about the implementation details all you want and it'll still work.


If you can make it better then, by all means, send a patch. Otherwise stop spreading false FUD, please.


Thanks


Alex | wired
 
Old 03-31-2012, 12:12 PM
Rich Freeman
 
Default Happy 10th birthday (in advance)

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 7:44 AM, Samuli Suominen <ssuominen@gentoo.org> wrote:
> (or hand me powers to remove people from ML :-)
>

That sounds like a great idea. We could create a code of conduct, and
then designate individuals to enforce it. Maybe we should call them
proctors:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml

What could go wrong?

Seriously though, this debate like many others recently probably
shouldn't be viewed as for-Gentoo and against-Gentoo. Lots of people
care about Gentoo, we just don't always agree on what is best. In
this case the issue is pragmatism vs idealism, and both have their
place.

What is important is that we go ahead and share our views, debate
points within reason, don't obsess over getting in the last word, and
then work together to support the decisions that get made.

My two cents in this debate is that I'm willing to accept Ciaran's
suggestion that Portage 2.2's approach has its limitations, but it is
the best thing we have implemented now, and thus I'll take the 98%
solution over the 20% solution (which is what we get if all we do is
argue over how to get to 100%(. If somebody wants to write the code
to get us from 98->100%, I'm sure we'll all be for it.

Rich
 
Old 03-31-2012, 02:52 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default Happy 10th birthday (in advance)

On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:08:29 +0300
Alex Alexander <alex.alexander@gmail.com> wrote:
> No. I didn't say I think it works, I said I have proof it works.

Well that's interesting, because there are plenty of examples where it
doesn't work, and all that it takes to disprove a theory is a single
counterexample. So I think you're misunderstanding what constitutes
proof here -- "some evidence" certainly isn't it.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 03-31-2012, 02:59 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default Happy 10th birthday (in advance)

On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 03:06:36 -0700
Brian Harring <ferringb@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The problem with preserved-libs (and emerge --jobs, for that
> > matter) is that the design is "I can think of a few ways where it
> > might break, so I'll hard-code in special cases to handle those,
> > but in general I can't think of what other problems there are so
> > it's fine". That's a bad way of doing things.
>
> Then don't use it. Reality is, gentoo does.
>
> If you don't like that fact, I suggest you stick to exherbo.
>
> Related, why the hell are you still even around here?

Because unlike you, I believe Gentoo can and should get it right. If
users want a desktoppy distribution where stuff sort of works most of
the time but no-one really understands why, and where you reinstall
every six months, then Ubuntu already does a far better job of that.
Gentoo can deliver something better.

It's not even more work. It just requires a small change in thought
process from "code first and ask questions later" to "think first and
then code". That, together with incrementally fixing existing bad
design decisions, could bring Gentoo back towards being an extremely
attractive alternative distribution.

> I wouldn't care if it weren't the fact your gentoo dev posts
> generally consist of "xyz is stupid, as is the people behind it"
> whether it be portage, udev, council, etc, take your pick.

No, what I actually say is *why* things don't work, and if it hasn't
already been explained, I say how to fix it. But the first step towards
getting something fixed is admitting that there's a problem, and you've
always been awfully reluctant to do that until the damage has already
been done.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 03-31-2012, 03:01 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default Happy 10th birthday (in advance)

On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:00:00 +0800
Patrick Lauer <patrick@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Good enough is the worst enemy of perfect.
>
> While we have s 98% solution that doesn't handle all corner cases you
> have a theoretical construct in your brain that might in theory cover
> 100% of all cases, but it's in your brain where I can't use it, so ...
> I'll take the pragmatic approach and use what works.

If you have a ten components, each of which 98% work, your overall
system is 80% reliable. If you have twenty such components, it's down
to 66% reliable. You're rapidly entering "when it breaks, reinstall"
territory here.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 03-31-2012, 03:07 PM
Patrick Lauer
 
Default Happy 10th birthday (in advance)

On 03/31/12 23:01, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:00:00 +0800
> Patrick Lauer <patrick@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Good enough is the worst enemy of perfect.
>>
>> While we have s 98% solution that doesn't handle all corner cases you
>> have a theoretical construct in your brain that might in theory cover
>> 100% of all cases, but it's in your brain where I can't use it, so ...
>> I'll take the pragmatic approach and use what works.
>
> If you have a ten components, each of which 98% work, your overall
> system is 80% reliable. If you have twenty such components, it's down
> to 66% reliable. You're rapidly entering "when it breaks, reinstall"
> territory here.
>
Which is still more than 0%.

I demand better trolls, this is getting boring.
 
Old 03-31-2012, 03:12 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default Happy 10th birthday (in advance)

On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 23:07:04 +0800
Patrick Lauer <patrick@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > If you have a ten components, each of which 98% work, your overall
> > system is 80% reliable. If you have twenty such components, it's
> > down to 66% reliable. You're rapidly entering "when it breaks,
> > reinstall" territory here.
> >
> Which is still more than 0%.
>
> I demand better trolls, this is getting boring.

So you think Gentoo should advertise as "the chances of it working are
greater than 0%"?

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 

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