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Old 03-27-2012, 07:29 PM
William Hubbs
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 08:20:45AM +1300, Kent Fredric wrote:
> On 28 March 2012 08:15, Sven Vermeulen <swift@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >> Then again, Gentoo is about choice. *It just seems like we're
> >> presenting users with more choices than makes sense for a newbie. *If
> >> there is a choice between something that 99.99% of users will want,
> >> and some ancient piece of cruft that still works and is better for
> >> 0.01% of the userbase, does that really have to be in the handbook?
> >
> > Welcome to documentation development. The Gentoo Handbook has always been a
> > difficult source for such discussions. If we truely want to provide
> > information towards our users on all possible choices, you'll need a totally
> > different approach.
> >
> > I once started (before I left Gentoo, rejoined, left again) on a "complete
> > gentoo handbook" that covered much more in greater detail (you'll find the
> > last version at
> > http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/draft/complete/handbook.xml) but I've
> > since moved away from that. Perhaps I should work again on it...
> >
> > Wkr,
> > * * * *Sven Vermeulen
> >
>
>
> An idea is a javascripty-dynamic-slidey thing that makes more details
> and advanced stuff visible to people who want it, so you can adjust
> the documentation to suit your skill level.

Why not just the separate "quick install" guide like we have that lists
steps and the handbook if yu want more details?

William
 
Old 03-27-2012, 07:31 PM
"Aaron W. Swenson"
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

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On 03/27/2012 03:13 PM, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> On 27/03/12 03:04 PM, Aaron W. Swenson wrote:
>
>>> You know, we have "Code Listing 2.1: Filesystem Example" in
>>> Section 4, we could always adjust that to have a /usr/portage
>>> partition in it (take a bit of space away from /home, or
>>> something)
>
>>> It doesn't recommend/require anything, but when users see it
>>> they'll think about it.
>
>> That isn't the way users read it, though. They read it and
>> assume that is precisely how they *need* to configure their disk
>> layout.
>
>> - Aaron
>
>
> Really? It's been a while since i hung out in #gentoo, but i was
> there pretty solidly for a couple of years and i don't recall any
> new user (to gentoo or linux) reporting in, saying they set up
> their disk(s) with all of those partitions. They pretty well
> always followed the "default partitioning scheme" listed in the
> table in 4.b (which is used for every other example on that
> chapter).

Yes, really.

I've seen it often in #gentoo where a new user said that they did it
just like the example told them to, despite it being marked 'Optional'
they still thought it was required. It would take several of the
experienced users to say 'skip it' in four-part harmony to convince
the novice to move on.

The less we show regarding advanced setups, the less likely we'll have
support a new installation. We can hint at them somewhere in the
paragraphs, but we should avoid them in the code samples because
people don't read. They skim.

- - Aaron
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:40 PM
Sven Vermeulen
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 02:29:34PM -0500, William Hubbs wrote:
> Why not just the separate "quick install" guide like we have that lists
> steps and the handbook if yu want more details?

We came from that. It means we need to start managing "just the commands"
for each architecture. After a while, people start asking more information
for "just the necessary bits", making the guides longer and longer, after
which they'll eventually need to be made multi-page.

Wkr,
Sven Vermeulen
 
Old 03-27-2012, 07:57 PM
Richard Yao
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

On 03/27/12 14:34, Alexandre Rostovtsev wrote:
> The partitioning scheme is something that the user needs to decide on
> *before* getting Gentoo up and running. After the user had finished
> installing the operating system, it's too late to inform him about the
> advantages of a separate /usr/portage.
>
> IMHO, chapter 4 of the handbook needs the following changes:
>
> 1. ext4, not ext3, needs to be recommended as the default filesystem. We
> have kernel 3.2 marked stable, there is no need to keep talking about
> ext4 as if it's something experimental.
>
> 2. The handbook should mention that a separate small /usr/portage
> partition can noticeably improve performance for users with a rotational
> hard drive, and that it's not needed for solid-state drives. It should
> also mention that using Gentoo with a separate /usr/portage partition
> will require some additional configuration (such as changing DISTDIR and
> PKGDIR to avoid running out of space).
>
> -Alexandre.
>
>

Could we amend this to also include the benefits of ZFS and why you
would want to use XFS or reiserfs instead of ext{2,3,4} as your
filesystem in situations where ZFS is not yet appropriate (e.g. using it
on Gentoo stable)? We could also include documentation on Reiser4 while
we are at it.

With that said, I don't think that this is appropriate for the handbook.
It is meant to get users started, not to set things in stone. The
partitioning can always be redone later via a stage4 backup.

On the note, I would like to suggest that we make a separate disk
partitioning and filesystem handbook, which would seem to be a more
appropriate location for this information. I should also say that I do
agree about recommending ext4 instead of ext3 by default.
 
Old 03-27-2012, 08:05 PM
Alec Moskvin
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

On Tuesday 27 March 2012 14:34:03, Alexandre Rostovtsev wrote:
> On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 20:01 +0200, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 07:49:00PM +0200, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > > I am a bit surprised handbook still doesn't suggest people to create a
> > > separate partition for /usr/portage tree. I remember my first Gentoo
> > > systems had it inside / and that lead to a lot of fragmentation, much
> > > slower "emerge -pvuDN world" (I benchmarked it when I changed my
> > > partitioning scheme to put /usr/portage) separate and a lot of disk
> > > space lost (I remember portage tree reached around 3 GB of disk space
> > > while I am now running with 300MB)
> > >
> > > Could handbook suggest people to put /usr/portage on a different
> > > partition then? The only doubt I have is what filesystem would be better
> > > for it, in my case I am using reiserfs with tail enabled, but maybe you
> > > have other different setups.
> >
> > To be honest, I don't think it is wise to describe it in the Gentoo Handbook
> > just yet. I don't mind having it documented elsewhere, but the separate
> > partition is not mandatory for getting Gentoo up and running. The
> > instructions currently also just give an example partition layout and tell
> > users that different layouts are perfectly possible.
> >
> > We need to take into consideration what is needed (must) for a Gentoo
> > installation, what is seriously recommended (should), what is nice to have
> > (could), etc. And for me, having a separate /usr/portage is a nice-to-have
> > imo.
>
> The partitioning scheme is something that the user needs to decide on
> *before* getting Gentoo up and running. After the user had finished
> installing the operating system, it's too late to inform him about the
> advantages of a separate /usr/portage.

It does not have to be a separate *physical* partition. It could be set
up as a loop device without any real downsides:

/usr/portage/tree.ext4 /usr/portage/tree ext4 loop,noatime 0 0

An advantage is that it can be easily resized if necessary.

> IMHO, chapter 4 of the handbook needs the following changes:
>
> 1. ext4, not ext3, needs to be recommended as the default filesystem. We
> have kernel 3.2 marked stable, there is no need to keep talking about
> ext4 as if it's something experimental.
>
> 2. The handbook should mention that a separate small /usr/portage
> partition can noticeably improve performance for users with a rotational
> hard drive, and that it's not needed for solid-state drives. It should
> also mention that using Gentoo with a separate /usr/portage partition
> will require some additional configuration (such as changing DISTDIR and
> PKGDIR to avoid running out of space).
>
> -Alexandre.
>
>
 
Old 03-27-2012, 08:15 PM
Kent Fredric
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

On 28 March 2012 08:57, Richard Yao <ryao@cs.stonybrook.edu> wrote:
>
> Could we amend this to also include the benefits of ZFS and why you
> would want to use XFS or reiserfs instead of ext{2,3,4} as your
> filesystem in situations where ZFS is not yet appropriate (e.g. using it
> on Gentoo stable)? We could also include documentation on Reiser4 while
> we are at it.

Thats probably asking a bit much, I've done my experimenting with
XFS/reiserfs , the benefits aren't that substantial to be worth the
hassle of the negatives. And as for Reiser4, if there's any
documentation mentioning that I think it being simply "Don't use
Reiser4" adequate enough.

Noob Level: Just Use Ext4
Intermediate: Just Use Ext4, use Ext3 or 2 if you want more something
else, but ext4 should do the trick
Advanced: Entertain the ideas of XFS/reiser if you want, but you're
not likely going to see a *lot* of difference over ext4 on its own
partition. Not in the long term.

I used to advocate JFS, but long term experience with it taught me JFS
is fast for new file systems, and gets progressively slower over time.
The original IBM JFS had a defrag tool nobody managed to port to Linux
so JFS just gets crufty and stays that way.


--
Kent

perl -e* "print substr( "edrgmaM* SPA NOcomil.ic@tfrken", $_ * 3,
3 ) for ( 9,8,0,7,1,6,5,4,3,2 );"
 
Old 03-28-2012, 07:16 AM
Brian Dolbec
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 19:16 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> But that's ok, because extensive studies have shown that the only possible
> reasons for putting /usr/portage on its own partition are historical,
> since everyone has an SSD now.
>

Yeah, right. Since I must be the only one out there that doesn't yet
have an SSD, you'll give me (and anyone else that still doesn't) one?
--
Brian Dolbec <dolsen@gentoo.org>
 
Old 03-28-2012, 10:35 AM
Rich Freeman
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 3:16 AM, Brian Dolbec <dolsen@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 19:16 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> But that's ok, because extensive studies have shown that the only possible
>> reasons for putting /usr/portage on its own partition are historical,
>> since everyone has an SSD now.
>>
>
> Yeah, right. *Since I must be the only one out there that doesn't yet
> have an SSD, you'll give me (and anyone else that still doesn't) one?

Woosh...
 
Old 03-28-2012, 02:53 PM
Kent Fredric
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

On 28 March 2012 20:16, Brian Dolbec <dolsen@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 19:16 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> But that's ok, because extensive studies have shown that the only possible

>> reasons for putting /usr/portage on its own partition are historical,
>> since everyone has an SSD now.
>>
>
> Yeah, right. *Since I must be the only one out there that doesn't yet

> have an SSD, you'll give me (and anyone else that still doesn't) one?
> --
> Brian Dolbec <dolsen@gentoo.org>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm


Unfortunately, when on the internet, this often transmutes into :

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dick




Sorry.


--
Kent

perl -e* "print substr( "edrgmaM* SPA NOcomil.ic@tfrken", $_ * 3, 3 ) for ( 9,8,0,7,1,6,5,4,3,2 );"

http://kent-fredric.fox.geek.nz
 
Old 03-28-2012, 02:59 PM
Richard Yao
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

On 03/28/12 03:16, Brian Dolbec wrote:
> On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 19:16 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> But that's ok, because extensive studies have shown that the only possible
>> reasons for putting /usr/portage on its own partition are historical,
>> since everyone has an SSD now.
>>
>
> Yeah, right. Since I must be the only one out there that doesn't yet
> have an SSD, you'll give me (and anyone else that still doesn't) one?

In response to the people who don't like what Brian had to say, I would
like to say that we can't start making assumptions about what hardware
people have and ignore anyone who does not fit those assumptions.

I support Brian on this. If you guys want to have documentation on more
advanced disk tricks, make a separate handbook that specializes in
partitioning and filesystems. The main handbook can include a reference
to it for advanced users.
 

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