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Old 03-27-2012, 05:49 PM
Pacho Ramos
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

Hello

I am a bit surprised handbook still doesn't suggest people to create a
separate partition for /usr/portage tree. I remember my first Gentoo
systems had it inside / and that lead to a lot of fragmentation, much
slower "emerge -pvuDN world" (I benchmarked it when I changed my
partitioning scheme to put /usr/portage) separate and a lot of disk
space lost (I remember portage tree reached around 3 GB of disk space
while I am now running with 300MB)

Could handbook suggest people to put /usr/portage on a different
partition then? The only doubt I have is what filesystem would be better
for it, in my case I am using reiserfs with tail enabled, but maybe you
have other different setups.

Thanks for discussing this
 
Old 03-27-2012, 06:01 PM
Sven Vermeulen
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 07:49:00PM +0200, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> I am a bit surprised handbook still doesn't suggest people to create a
> separate partition for /usr/portage tree. I remember my first Gentoo
> systems had it inside / and that lead to a lot of fragmentation, much
> slower "emerge -pvuDN world" (I benchmarked it when I changed my
> partitioning scheme to put /usr/portage) separate and a lot of disk
> space lost (I remember portage tree reached around 3 GB of disk space
> while I am now running with 300MB)
>
> Could handbook suggest people to put /usr/portage on a different
> partition then? The only doubt I have is what filesystem would be better
> for it, in my case I am using reiserfs with tail enabled, but maybe you
> have other different setups.

To be honest, I don't think it is wise to describe it in the Gentoo Handbook
just yet. I don't mind having it documented elsewhere, but the separate
partition is not mandatory for getting Gentoo up and running. The
instructions currently also just give an example partition layout and tell
users that different layouts are perfectly possible.

We need to take into consideration what is needed (must) for a Gentoo
installation, what is seriously recommended (should), what is nice to have
(could), etc. And for me, having a separate /usr/portage is a nice-to-have
imo.

Wkr,
Sven Vermeulen
 
Old 03-27-2012, 06:16 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:49:00 +0200
Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I am a bit surprised handbook still doesn't suggest people to create a
> separate partition for /usr/portage tree.

I don't know whether you've heard, but PackageKit (a hard dependency of
udev as of 185, to allow automatic installation of the appropriate
firmware) no longer supports /usr/portage on its own partition. But
that's ok, because extensive studies have shown that the only possible
reasons for putting /usr/portage on its own partition are historical,
since everyone has an SSD now.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 03-27-2012, 06:21 PM
"Aaron W. Swenson"
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

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Hash: SHA256

On 03/27/2012 02:01 PM, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 07:49:00PM +0200, Pacho Ramos wrote:
>> I am a bit surprised handbook still doesn't suggest people to
>> create a separate partition for /usr/portage tree. I remember my
>> first Gentoo systems had it inside / and that lead to a lot of
>> fragmentation, much slower "emerge -pvuDN world" (I benchmarked
>> it when I changed my partitioning scheme to put /usr/portage)
>> separate and a lot of disk space lost (I remember portage tree
>> reached around 3 GB of disk space while I am now running with
>> 300MB)
>>
>> Could handbook suggest people to put /usr/portage on a different
>> partition then? The only doubt I have is what filesystem would be
>> better for it, in my case I am using reiserfs with tail enabled,
>> but maybe you have other different setups.
>
> To be honest, I don't think it is wise to describe it in the Gentoo
> Handbook just yet. I don't mind having it documented elsewhere, but
> the separate partition is not mandatory for getting Gentoo up and
> running. The instructions currently also just give an example
> partition layout and tell users that different layouts are
> perfectly possible.
>
> We need to take into consideration what is needed (must) for a
> Gentoo installation, what is seriously recommended (should), what
> is nice to have (could), etc. And for me, having a separate
> /usr/portage is a nice-to-have imo.
>
> Wkr, Sven Vermeulen
>

Definitely. The handbook should only cover simple, straightforward
setups. New users are already overwhelmed by the handbook as it is.
Going into details about alternate setups would only increase the
number of "Is there a quick start guide somewhere that I can follow"
or "which setup is best" questions that we currently get in #gentoo
and friends.

If anything, I'd recommend we remove some details, like getting rid of
the 'mirrorselect' command. (Too many people run into a non-starter
because of it.)

- - Aaron
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:34 PM
Alexandre Rostovtsev
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 20:01 +0200, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 07:49:00PM +0200, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > I am a bit surprised handbook still doesn't suggest people to create a
> > separate partition for /usr/portage tree. I remember my first Gentoo
> > systems had it inside / and that lead to a lot of fragmentation, much
> > slower "emerge -pvuDN world" (I benchmarked it when I changed my
> > partitioning scheme to put /usr/portage) separate and a lot of disk
> > space lost (I remember portage tree reached around 3 GB of disk space
> > while I am now running with 300MB)
> >
> > Could handbook suggest people to put /usr/portage on a different
> > partition then? The only doubt I have is what filesystem would be better
> > for it, in my case I am using reiserfs with tail enabled, but maybe you
> > have other different setups.
>
> To be honest, I don't think it is wise to describe it in the Gentoo Handbook
> just yet. I don't mind having it documented elsewhere, but the separate
> partition is not mandatory for getting Gentoo up and running. The
> instructions currently also just give an example partition layout and tell
> users that different layouts are perfectly possible.
>
> We need to take into consideration what is needed (must) for a Gentoo
> installation, what is seriously recommended (should), what is nice to have
> (could), etc. And for me, having a separate /usr/portage is a nice-to-have
> imo.

The partitioning scheme is something that the user needs to decide on
*before* getting Gentoo up and running. After the user had finished
installing the operating system, it's too late to inform him about the
advantages of a separate /usr/portage.

IMHO, chapter 4 of the handbook needs the following changes:

1. ext4, not ext3, needs to be recommended as the default filesystem. We
have kernel 3.2 marked stable, there is no need to keep talking about
ext4 as if it's something experimental.

2. The handbook should mention that a separate small /usr/portage
partition can noticeably improve performance for users with a rotational
hard drive, and that it's not needed for solid-state drives. It should
also mention that using Gentoo with a separate /usr/portage partition
will require some additional configuration (such as changing DISTDIR and
PKGDIR to avoid running out of space).

-Alexandre.
 
Old 03-27-2012, 06:47 PM
Rich Freeman
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Alexandre Rostovtsev <tetromino@gentoo.org>
> The partitioning scheme is something that the user needs to decide on
> *before* getting Gentoo up and running. After the user had finished
> installing the operating system, it's too late to inform him about the
> advantages of a separate /usr/portage.

Yes and no (if you have free space, you could easily move /usr/portage
- some other changes are harder).

However, you could extend this line of argument to raid, lvm, and even
stuff like the use of systemd or an alternative package manager. All
of those things are much easier to implement if you just start out
with them.

I'm all for creating a wiki to talk about some alternative options.
Perhaps even link to it at the start of the handbook in the intro (if
you're not in a rush and want to read about more advanced
configurations, check out ...).

However, I tend to agree that the handbook should be a
nearly-foolproof no-frills Gentoo installation.

> 1. ext4, not ext3, needs to be recommended as the default filesystem. We
> have kernel 3.2 marked stable, there is no need to keep talking about
> ext4 as if it's something experimental.

I tend to agree here. Not sure we need the full discussion of
filesystems either. Ext4 is probably good enough for everybody, and
mention ext3/2 as more established alternatives.

I tend to feel the same way about stuff like LILO.

Then again, Gentoo is about choice. It just seems like we're
presenting users with more choices than makes sense for a newbie. If
there is a choice between something that 99.99% of users will want,
and some ancient piece of cruft that still works and is better for
0.01% of the userbase, does that really have to be in the handbook?

Rich
 
Old 03-27-2012, 06:53 PM
Ian Stakenvicius
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

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Hash: SHA256

On 27/03/12 02:47 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Alexandre Rostovtsev
> <tetromino@gentoo.org>
>> The partitioning scheme is something that the user needs to
>> decide on *before* getting Gentoo up and running. After the user
>> had finished installing the operating system, it's too late to
>> inform him about the advantages of a separate /usr/portage.
>
> Yes and no (if you have free space, you could easily move
> /usr/portage - some other changes are harder).
>
> However, you could extend this line of argument to raid, lvm, and
> even stuff like the use of systemd or an alternative package
> manager. All of those things are much easier to implement if you
> just start out with them.
>
> I'm all for creating a wiki to talk about some alternative
> options. Perhaps even link to it at the start of the handbook in
> the intro (if you're not in a rush and want to read about more
> advanced configurations, check out ...).
>
> However, I tend to agree that the handbook should be a
> nearly-foolproof no-frills Gentoo installation.
>


You know, we have "Code Listing 2.1: Filesystem Example" in Section 4,
we could always adjust that to have a /usr/portage partition in it
(take a bit of space away from /home, or something)

It doesn't recommend/require anything, but when users see it they'll
think about it.


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Old 03-27-2012, 07:02 PM
"vivo75@gmail.com"
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

Il 27/03/2012 20:53, Ian Stakenvicius ha scritto:

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Hash: SHA256

On 27/03/12 02:47 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Alexandre Rostovtsev
<tetromino@gentoo.org>

The partitioning scheme is something that the user needs to
decide on *before* getting Gentoo up and running. After the user
had finished installing the operating system, it's too late to
inform him about the advantages of a separate /usr/portage.

Yes and no (if you have free space, you could easily move
/usr/portage - some other changes are harder).

However, you could extend this line of argument to raid, lvm, and
even stuff like the use of systemd or an alternative package
manager. All of those things are much easier to implement if you
just start out with them.

I'm all for creating a wiki to talk about some alternative
options. Perhaps even link to it at the start of the handbook in
the intro (if you're not in a rush and want to read about more
advanced configurations, check out ...).

However, I tend to agree that the handbook should be a
nearly-foolproof no-frills Gentoo installation.



You know, we have "Code Listing 2.1: Filesystem Example" in Section 4,
we could always adjust that to have a /usr/portage partition in it
(take a bit of space away from /home, or something)

It doesn't recommend/require anything, but when users see it they'll
think about it.


Boh ... IMHO /usr/portage should be a squashfs filesystem, rsynced from
some kind server out there, auto(un)mounted, so it releases resources
after use.
No needs for any additional partition (which sound kinda lame for a
package manager)


However the devs are right here, handbook should be stripped down, not
bloated with details that could be fulfilled later


Rgds,
Francesco
 
Old 03-27-2012, 07:04 PM
"Aaron W. Swenson"
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

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On 03/27/2012 02:53 PM, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> On 27/03/12 02:47 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Alexandre Rostovtsev
>> <tetromino@gentoo.org>
>>> The partitioning scheme is something that the user needs to
>>> decide on *before* getting Gentoo up and running. After the
>>> user had finished installing the operating system, it's too
>>> late to inform him about the advantages of a separate
>>> /usr/portage.
>
>> Yes and no (if you have free space, you could easily move
>> /usr/portage - some other changes are harder).
...
>> However, I tend to agree that the handbook should be a
>> nearly-foolproof no-frills Gentoo installation.
>
>
>
> You know, we have "Code Listing 2.1: Filesystem Example" in Section
> 4, we could always adjust that to have a /usr/portage partition in
> it (take a bit of space away from /home, or something)
>
> It doesn't recommend/require anything, but when users see it
> they'll think about it.

That isn't the way users read it, though. They read it and assume that
is precisely how they *need* to configure their disk layout.

- - Aaron
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:13 PM
Ian Stakenvicius
 
Default About suggesting to create a separate partition for portage tree in handbook

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On 27/03/12 03:04 PM, Aaron W. Swenson wrote:
>
>> You know, we have "Code Listing 2.1: Filesystem Example" in
>> Section 4, we could always adjust that to have a /usr/portage
>> partition in it (take a bit of space away from /home, or
>> something)
>
>> It doesn't recommend/require anything, but when users see it
>> they'll think about it.
>
> That isn't the way users read it, though. They read it and assume
> that is precisely how they *need* to configure their disk layout.
>
> - Aaron
>

Really? It's been a while since i hung out in #gentoo, but i was
there pretty solidly for a couple of years and i don't recall any new
user (to gentoo or linux) reporting in, saying they set up their
disk(s) with all of those partitions. They pretty well always
followed the "default partitioning scheme" listed in the table in 4.b
(which is used for every other example on that chapter).

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