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Old 01-01-2012, 07:18 PM
Michał Górny
 
Default rfc: locations of binaries and separate /usr

On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 01:33:05 -0600
Matthew Thode (prometheanfire) <prometheanfire@gentoo.org> wrote:

> All of my systems currently have a seperate /usr that is mounted at
> boot. Unfortunately I do agree that this is not something that we can
> fight. This was brought up earlier and the only thing we can do
> for people like myself (who mount /usr at boot) is to create a simple
> initramfs that only has the purpose of mounting /usr at boot. The
> main thing I don't like about initramfs is that we have to regenerate
> it any time we update the packages that get included in it.

Eh, I think I'll end up writing myself that four lines of shell code
for you which mounts /usr and runs init.

Or maybe I'll leave that task to you. Attaching my /init for
micro-initramfs on klibc. It looks like that:

├── bin
│** ├── ls
│** ├── mount
│** ├── run-init
│** └── sh
├── dev
│** ├── null
│** └── sda2
├── init
├── lib64
│** ├── klibc-MZ_9MGQEe6NFqmrPjRpy5i6WlV8.so
│** └── libc.so -> klibc-MZ_9MGQEe6NFqmrPjRpy5i6WlV8.so
├── newroot
└── proc

$ du -sh
176K .

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny
 
Old 01-01-2012, 07:21 PM
Olivier Crte
 
Default rfc: locations of binaries and separate /usr

On Sun, 2012-01-01 at 15:33 +0800, Patrick Lauer wrote:
> On 01/01/12 15:12, Olivier Crte wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Sat, 2011-12-31 at 19:59 -0600, William Hubbs wrote:
> >> I have been working with robbat2 on solutions to the separate /usr issue
> >> (That is why I have specifically cc'd him on this email)
> >> which will allow people to not use an initramfs. If we migrate
> >> everything off of the root fs to /usr, all of those solutions become
> >> moot. On the other hand, if we don't migrate, we run the risk of
> >> eventually having our default configuration not supported by upstream.
> > I think the general consensus among other distros is that initramfs is
> > the new /. Many core elements of the Linux system will start installing
> > themselves in /usr, starting with udev, so we won't have a choice
> > anyway. Also, I doubt it's currently possible to boot a Gentoo system
> > without /usr mounted anyway.
> "initramfs is the new /" ... and no one asked if maybe that doesn't
> really make sense?
>
> That people are now actively working on forcing one big system partition
> is annoying, but I really don't see the need to add a layer or two of
> complexification just because, well, why not.

We're absolutely not forcing a single system partition. We're just
saying that the bits required to mount all the partitions you want
should be in an initramfs.

> >> 1) Start migrating packages along with upstream and have everyone who
> >> has a separate /usr (including me by the way) start using an initramfs
> >> of some kind, either dracut or one that we generate specifically for
> >> gentoo. The reason I suggest the initramfs, is, unfortunately if we
> >> migrate everything, nothing else would work.
> > I also don't see a good reason to not adopt dracut,
> Make it work and I'll reconsider it, until then genkernel wins by default.
> > re-implementing
> > something that already works and is maintained by a competent upstream
> > seems wasteful to me. I really don't see why people resist using an
> > initramfs so much.
> What does it add, apart from time to the boot process? For some setups
> (like my notebook with luks+lvm) there's no reasonable way around it,
> but on my desktop it's worse than useless.

I don't see how it adds time to the boot process. Either you have a
single big partition (and then you don't even need an initramfs), or you
have multiple partitions and then most of the time is mounting them
anyway.

> > The udev/kmod/systemd/dracut effort to standardise the base userspace of
> > Linux is probably scary for quite a few Gentoo-ers as it means that the
> > end result of an installed Gentoo system will be less differentiated
> > than it was before. But it still is a step in the right direction as
> > most of these standardized pieces are much better than what we currently
> > have. The OpenRC/baselayout-2 fiasco, not much better than baselayout-1
> > and unmaintained upstream shows that even a relatively large
> > distribution like us can't maintain a competitive base system solution,
> Eh what?
>
> I don't see an advantage in replacing a known-good solution with some
> random stuff that mostly doesn't work yet just because it's the future.

Random stuff that was well though to work together and works well enough
that all other major distros are adopting it.

> > adopting the udev/kmod/systemd way will allow us to use all the work
> > that they are doing and instead concentrate on making a better system.
> >
> "Better" means no lennartware to me. I want to be able to fully debug
> init script failures, which systemd makes very hard to impossible. On
> some machines I have changes in the startup that would mean having to
> hack up something in C and hope that it doesn't crash init for systemd
> (what the bleeeep?)

You can start services with a shell scripts in systemd, you just have to
aim the .service unit file to you shellscript..

> Please don't try to bring the GnomeOS vision of having MacOS without
> paying for it to my computing experience ...

Honestly, so many things just work on MacOS and just need hours of
tweaking for us..

--
Olivier Crte
tester@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer
 
Old 01-01-2012, 07:21 PM
Olivier Crte
 
Default rfc: locations of binaries and separate /usr

On Sun, 2012-01-01 at 08:53 +0000, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 07:59:47PM -0600, William Hubbs wrote:
> > 1) Start migrating packages along with upstream and have everyone who
> > has a separate /usr (including me by the way) start using an initramfs
> > of some kind, either dracut or one that we generate specifically for
> > gentoo. The reason I suggest the initramfs, is, unfortunately if we
> > migrate everything, nothing else would work.
>
> I use a separate /usr with LVM on all my systems. My root partition uses
> RAID1. And I never had the need for an initramfs of any kind. Also, there
> are some major hurdles to take when it comes to getting an initramfs working
> with SELinux. Most initramfs implementations I saw are not SELinux aware, so
> all changes they make to the system either result in failures when they try,
> or failures when the root-switch occurs.

dracut fully supports SELinux (it's used in Fedora which has this
SELinux horror on by default).

> > 3) Try to maintain things the way they are as long as possible.
>
> I'm all for this one.
>
> But if people really want to focus on initramfs, I'd appreciate some
> documentation help on it. Not only on how to create one, but also why it is
> necessary, how to manage initramfs'es, the concepts underlying, etc.

Short version: use dracut.

--
Olivier Crte
tester@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer
 
Old 01-01-2012, 07:23 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default rfc: locations of binaries and separate /usr

On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:21:24 -0500
Olivier Crte <tester@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Honestly, so many things just work on MacOS and just need hours of
> tweaking for us..

The problem with "just works" is that when it breaks, it can't be
fixed. Not being able to handle /usr on its own filesystem is a perfect
example of this.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 01-01-2012, 07:51 PM
Dale
 
Default rfc: locations of binaries and separate /usr

Olivier Crte wrote:

On Sun, 2012-01-01 at 01:33 -0600, Matthew Thode wrote:

On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 02:12:22 -0500
Olivier Crte<tester@gentoo.org> wrote:
All of my systems currently have a seperate /usr that is mounted at
boot. Unfortunately I do agree that this is not something that we can
fight. This was brought up earlier and the only thing we can do
for people like myself (who mount /usr at boot) is to create a simple
initramfs that only has the purpose of mounting /usr at boot. The main
thing I don't like about initramfs is that we have to regenerate it any
time we update the packages that get included in it.

That's why you have dracut to do it for you.




Which is keyworded at this point. Stable users do what?

Dale

:-) :-)

--
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output? Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"
 
Old 01-01-2012, 08:49 PM
Olivier Crte
 
Default rfc: locations of binaries and separate /usr

On Sun, 2012-01-01 at 14:51 -0600, Dale wrote:
> Olivier Crte wrote:
> > On Sun, 2012-01-01 at 01:33 -0600, Matthew Thode wrote:
> >> On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 02:12:22 -0500
> >> Olivier Crte<tester@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >> All of my systems currently have a seperate /usr that is mounted at
> >> boot. Unfortunately I do agree that this is not something that we can
> >> fight. This was brought up earlier and the only thing we can do
> >> for people like myself (who mount /usr at boot) is to create a simple
> >> initramfs that only has the purpose of mounting /usr at boot. The main
> >> thing I don't like about initramfs is that we have to regenerate it any
> >> time we update the packages that get included in it.
> > That's why you have dracut to do it for you.
> >
> >
>
> Which is keyworded at this point. Stable users do what?

This is a discussion about the future... Changing keywords is trivial if
we care.

--
Olivier Crte
tester@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer
 
Old 01-01-2012, 08:50 PM
Olivier Crte
 
Default rfc: locations of binaries and separate /usr

On Sun, 2012-01-01 at 20:23 +0000, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:21:24 -0500
> Olivier Crte <tester@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Honestly, so many things just work on MacOS and just need hours of
> > tweaking for us..
>
> The problem with "just works" is that when it breaks, it can't be
> fixed. Not being able to handle /usr on its own filesystem is a perfect
> example of this.

systemd/dracut/etc handles /usr on its own filesystem just fine. What is
required is that /usr must be mounted before the pivot_root away from
the initramfs.

--
Olivier Crte
tester@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer
 
Old 01-01-2012, 09:39 PM
"Robin H. Johnson"
 
Default rfc: locations of binaries and separate /usr

On Sun, Jan 01, 2012 at 02:12:22AM -0500, Olivier Crte wrote:
> The OpenRC/baselayout-2 fiasco, not much better than baselayout-1 and
> unmaintained upstream shows that even a relatively large
Why do you say that OpenRC is unmaintained upstream? OpenRC is actively
maintained in Gentoo, with the largest contributors being WilliamH,
vapier, idl0r and myself.

--
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Developer, Trustee & Infrastructure Lead
E-Mail : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
 
Old 01-02-2012, 04:39 AM
Duncan
 
Default rfc: locations of binaries and separate /usr

Olivier Crte posted on Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:17:50 -0500 as excerpted:

> On Sun, 2012-01-01 at 12:46 -0600, William Hubbs wrote:
>> I don't think the /{bin,sbin,lib} and /usr/sbin directories should be
>> deleted.
>>
>> However, what I would like to see is that the package maintainers would
>> be responsible for creating any compatibility symlinks their package
>> needs, not portage. I don't think it is a good idea to have portage or
>> any package manager controling the migration.
>
> The other option is to do mv /bin/* /sbin/* /usr/sbin/* /usr/bin; and
> then create symlinks from the other dirs to /usr/bin.. That can be done
> in big move, it's the way Fedora is going to do it.

That's what I had in mind, and in fact have already been thinking about
trying, here.

Which is why I don't really like the idea of packages placing symlinks,
since then it'd likely be the symlink copied last, overwriting the actual
binary with the symlink... pointing at itself due to the symlinked dirs!

Which is why I suggested a portage feature that would detect such
collisions and die before installing them, potentially overwriting the
binary with a symlink to itself!

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
 
Old 01-02-2012, 05:24 AM
Nguyen Thai Ngoc Duy
 
Default rfc: locations of binaries and separate /usr

On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 8:59 AM, William Hubbs <williamh@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Udev, kmod (which is a replacement for module-init-tools which will be needed
> by >=udev-176), systemd, and soon others, are advocating a major change
> to the locations where binaries and libraries are stored on linux
> systems.

Could you please point me to the discussions where udev, kmod and soon
others are advocating /usr/bin and /bin unification?
--
Duy
 

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