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Old 12-06-2011, 03:39 PM
Rich Freeman
 
Default sys-libs/ncurses: punted from system in profiles

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 11:17 AM, Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:
> ncurses is no longer part of the system deps. *in practice, this probably
> won't make a difference to most people since bash itself depends on ncurses,
> but it does make embedded/etc... simpler.

Hmm, I wonder how much further we'll have to go before you could use
portage to build an initramfs.

Rich
 
Old 12-06-2011, 03:50 PM
Alec Warner
 
Default sys-libs/ncurses: punted from system in profiles

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 11:17 AM, Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> ncurses is no longer part of the system deps. *in practice, this probably
>> won't make a difference to most people since bash itself depends on ncurses,
>> but it does make embedded/etc... simpler.
>
> Hmm, I wonder how much further we'll have to go before you could use
> portage to build an initramfs. *

Whatever man, look at all this bloat!

virtual/ssh
sys-apps/kbd
sys-apps/texinfo

Ok thats about all I could find ;p

-A

>
> Rich
>
 
Old 12-06-2011, 04:00 PM
Rich Freeman
 
Default sys-libs/ncurses: punted from system in profiles

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Alec Warner <antarus@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Whatever man, look at all this bloat!
>
> virtual/ssh

Great - I can remote access a system that doesn't boot.

> sys-apps/kbd

Full editing of config files works with my original IBM PC keyboard
(Estonian version)!

> sys-apps/texinfo

I can use a really arcane system for browsing documentation when my
system doesn't boot (perhaps from not meeting the 6GB of RAM
requirement).

Now all we need is xorg and chromium. If we just use the native
Google version it probably doesn't even need any dependencies.

Rich
 
Old 12-06-2011, 04:03 PM
Alec Warner
 
Default sys-libs/ncurses: punted from system in profiles

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 9:00 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Alec Warner <antarus@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Whatever man, look at all this bloat!
>>
>> virtual/ssh
>
> Great - I can remote access a system that doesn't boot.
>
>> sys-apps/kbd
>
> Full editing of config files works with my original IBM PC keyboard
> (Estonian version)!
>
>> sys-apps/texinfo
>
> I can use a really arcane system for browsing documentation when my
> system doesn't boot (perhaps from not meeting the 6GB of RAM
> requirement).

To be fair, I did actually learn something from reading info pages once.

date -d @UNIXTIMESTAMP

Best feature ever.

>
> Now all we need is xorg and chromium. *If we just use the native
> Google version it probably doesn't even need any dependencies. *
>
> Rich
>
 
Old 12-06-2011, 05:04 PM
Mike Frysinger
 
Default sys-libs/ncurses: punted from system in profiles

On Tuesday 06 December 2011 11:50:52 Alec Warner wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 11:17 AM, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> >> ncurses is no longer part of the system deps. in practice, this
> >> probably won't make a difference to most people since bash itself
> >> depends on ncurses, but it does make embedded/etc... simpler.
> >
> > Hmm, I wonder how much further we'll have to go before you could use
> > portage to build an initramfs.
>
> Whatever man, look at all this bloat!
>
> virtual/ssh

i think ssh is so prevalent in today's world that it should be a default on
all Gentoo systems. the people who are building standalone systems to the
point where they don't want ssh in/out are enough of a minority (in my
educated guess) that they can go through the hassle of:
mkdir -p /etc/portage/profile/
echo net-misc/openssh-0 >> /etc/portage/profile/package.provided

what might be interesting is if we had a "Gentoo default" set which is what
would come in a stage3 rather than the current "stage3 is the system set".
then we could move virtual/ssh out of the system set and into the "Gentoo
default" set so it'd be easier for people to drop/etc... but i'm not familiar
enough with the portage support atm to say how feasible such an idea would be.

> sys-apps/kbd

this controls keyboard mappings and fonts on the console. while the default
is probably OK for the USians, most everyone else wants to tweak these.

> sys-apps/texinfo

i personally detest info pages, but we end up needing texinfo by many many
packages just to *build* the info pages. and there are some info pages which
are vastly superior to the man pages (if any are provided) because the GNU
project has the policy of "info pages are the one true documentation format".
compare & contrast `man gdb` to `info gdb` or `man make` vs `info make`.
-mike
 
Old 12-06-2011, 05:40 PM
Rich Freeman
 
Default sys-libs/ncurses: punted from system in profiles

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 1:04 PM, Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:
> what might be interesting is if we had a "Gentoo default" set which is what
> would come in a stage3 rather than the current "stage3 is the system set".
> then we could move virtual/ssh out of the system set and into the "Gentoo
> default" set so it'd be easier for people to drop/etc... *but i'm not familiar
> enough with the portage support atm to say how feasible such an idea would be.
>

++

I see system about resolving the circular dependency issue - not as
installing useful apps. After all, the system set doesn't even
include a kernel!

>> sys-apps/kbd
>
> this controls keyboard mappings and fonts on the console. *while the default
> is probably OK for the USians, most everyone else wants to tweak these.
>

I tend to agree that this is closer to a system dependency. Even my
initramfs example might have a need for interactive input, and that
means a working keyboard layout. As a US user I can be spoiled by the
defaults, but I appreciate the value of this.

>> sys-apps/texinfo
>
> i personally detest info pages, but we end up needing texinfo by many many
> packages just to *build* the info pages.

Still probably something better placed in DEPEND. However, as I've
said before purging the system set is an aspirational goal and we
don't need to have a big debate over this right now.

Rich
 
Old 12-06-2011, 06:28 PM
Zac Medico
 
Default sys-libs/ncurses: punted from system in profiles

On 12/06/2011 10:04 AM, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> what might be interesting is if we had a "Gentoo default" set which is what
> would come in a stage3 rather than the current "stage3 is the system set".
> then we could move virtual/ssh out of the system set and into the "Gentoo
> default" set so it'd be easier for people to drop/etc... but i'm not familiar
> enough with the portage support atm to say how feasible such an idea would be.

Similar to how we use packages.build to define the stage1 set, we could
add a packages.default to define the stage3 set. Alternatively, we could
use a meta-package to pull in the defaults, and adjust the stage3 build
to pull in that meta-package automatically.
--
Thanks,
Zac
 
Old 12-06-2011, 07:52 PM
Mike Frysinger
 
Default sys-libs/ncurses: punted from system in profiles

On Tuesday 06 December 2011 14:28:02 Zac Medico wrote:
> On 12/06/2011 10:04 AM, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > what might be interesting is if we had a "Gentoo default" set which is
> > what would come in a stage3 rather than the current "stage3 is the
> > system set". then we could move virtual/ssh out of the system set and
> > into the "Gentoo default" set so it'd be easier for people to
> > drop/etc... but i'm not familiar enough with the portage support atm to
> > say how feasible such an idea would be.
>
> Similar to how we use packages.build to define the stage1 set, we could
> add a packages.default to define the stage3 set. Alternatively, we could
> use a meta-package to pull in the defaults, and adjust the stage3 build
> to pull in that meta-package automatically.

the packages.default sounds like a good idea as then we'd be able to
tweak/stack it on a per-profile basis like existing files. i'll file a release
bug on the topic, and then we can talk about moving virtual/ssh out of system
and into that.
-mike
 
Old 12-06-2011, 08:52 PM
Brian Harring
 
Default sys-libs/ncurses: punted from system in profiles

On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 03:52:07PM -0500, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Tuesday 06 December 2011 14:28:02 Zac Medico wrote:
> > On 12/06/2011 10:04 AM, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > > what might be interesting is if we had a "Gentoo default" set which is
> > > what would come in a stage3 rather than the current "stage3 is the
> > > system set". then we could move virtual/ssh out of the system set and
> > > into the "Gentoo default" set so it'd be easier for people to
> > > drop/etc... but i'm not familiar enough with the portage support atm to
> > > say how feasible such an idea would be.
> >
> > Similar to how we use packages.build to define the stage1 set, we could
> > add a packages.default to define the stage3 set. Alternatively, we could
> > use a meta-package to pull in the defaults, and adjust the stage3 build
> > to pull in that meta-package automatically.
>
> the packages.default sounds like a good idea as then we'd be able to
> tweak/stack it on a per-profile basis like existing files. i'll file a release
> bug on the topic, and then we can talk about moving virtual/ssh out of system
> and into that.

We really need something generic here rather than just introducing new
files; this basically duplicates sets for example.
~harring
 
Old 12-06-2011, 09:06 PM
Mike Frysinger
 
Default sys-libs/ncurses: punted from system in profiles

On Tuesday 06 December 2011 16:52:55 Brian Harring wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 03:52:07PM -0500, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > On Tuesday 06 December 2011 14:28:02 Zac Medico wrote:
> > > On 12/06/2011 10:04 AM, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > > > what might be interesting is if we had a "Gentoo default" set which
> > > > is what would come in a stage3 rather than the current "stage3 is
> > > > the system set". then we could move virtual/ssh out of the system
> > > > set and into the "Gentoo default" set so it'd be easier for people
> > > > to drop/etc... but i'm not familiar enough with the portage support
> > > > atm to say how feasible such an idea would be.
> > >
> > > Similar to how we use packages.build to define the stage1 set, we could
> > > add a packages.default to define the stage3 set. Alternatively, we
> > > could use a meta-package to pull in the defaults, and adjust the
> > > stage3 build to pull in that meta-package automatically.
> >
> > the packages.default sounds like a good idea as then we'd be able to
> > tweak/stack it on a per-profile basis like existing files. i'll file a
> > release bug on the topic, and then we can talk about moving virtual/ssh
> > out of system and into that.
>
> We really need something generic here rather than just introducing new
> files; this basically duplicates sets for example.

sets isn't in stable portage yet, right ? and is it stackable in profiles ?
-mike
 

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