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-   -   So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again? (http://www.linux-archive.org/gentoo-development/606092-so-now-we-have-quiet-build-default-can-we-talk-about-forced-lc_all-c-again.html)

Jeroen Roovers 12-04-2011 02:50 AM

So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?
 
Subject says it all. More and more bug attachments appear that have
been generated with non-English locales, and it's a nuisance for both
bug reporters and bug wranglers to request/provide the sane alternative
that every developer should be able to read.


jer

Alec Warner 12-04-2011 03:09 AM

So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?
 
On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Subject says it all. More and more bug attachments appear that have
> been generated with non-English locales, and it's a nuisance for both
> bug reporters and bug wranglers to request/provide the sane alternative
> that every developer should be able to read.

I think forcing LC_ALL=C is crazy.

-A

>
>
> * * jer
>

Mike Frysinger 12-04-2011 04:21 AM

So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?
 
On Saturday 03 December 2011 22:50:00 Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> Subject says it all. More and more bug attachments appear that have
> been generated with non-English locales, and it's a nuisance for both
> bug reporters and bug wranglers to request/provide the sane alternative
> that every developer should be able to read.

non C locales triggers real bugs i think we should be fixing

and in reality, you're complaining only about LC_MESSAGES, not LC_ALL or any
other locale category ...
-mike

Jeroen Roovers 12-04-2011 05:51 AM

So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?
 
On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 00:51:17 -0600
Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:

> How many times have you needed to request build logs in english since
> the last time you brought this up? How many times have you had to
> request emerge --info or build logs in general?

Many dozens of times, and a magnitude more dozens of times,
respectively, which also indicates quite clearly that this:

> I think adding a note to bugzilla reminding reporters that logs need
> to be in english would be a better solution

isn't going to work, and that this:

> than forcing it on everyone.

is what we're effectively already doing, only that we require human
intervention and a lot of time and effort to establish that.


jer

Ryan Hill 12-04-2011 05:51 AM

So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?
 
On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 04:50:00 +0100
Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Subject says it all. More and more bug attachments appear that have
> been generated with non-English locales, and it's a nuisance for both
> bug reporters and bug wranglers to request/provide the sane alternative
> that every developer should be able to read.

How many times have you needed to request build logs in english since the last
time you brought this up? How many times have you had to request emerge
--info or build logs in general?

I think adding a note to bugzilla reminding reporters that logs need to be in
english would be a better solution than forcing it on everyone.

--
fonts, gcc-porting, it makes no sense how it makes no sense
toolchain, wxwidgets but i'll take it free anytime
@ gentoo.org EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662

Alexandre Rostovtsev 12-04-2011 06:39 AM

So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?
 
On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 1:51 AM, Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 04:50:00 +0100
> Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> Subject says it all. More and more bug attachments appear that have
>> been generated with non-English locales, and it's a nuisance for both
>> bug reporters and bug wranglers to request/provide the sane alternative
>> that every developer should be able to read.
>
> How many times have you needed to request build logs in english since the last
> time you brought this up? *How many times have you had to request emerge
> --info or build logs in general?

I suspect that being able to read logs is much more important for
general bug wranglers like Jeroen than for the developers who only
deal with bugs for a small set of packages. Although I find
non-English logs annoying, they are usually good enough for me to find
the problem when dealing with bugs in a package with which I am
already familiar. However, I would likely be lost if I needed to help
a user who had posted a log in a language that I did not understand
for a package that I knew little about.

-Alexandre.

Ryan Hill 12-04-2011 07:14 AM

So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?
 
On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 07:51:09 +0100
Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 00:51:17 -0600
> Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> > How many times have you needed to request build logs in english since
> > the last time you brought this up? How many times have you had to
> > request emerge --info or build logs in general?
>
> Many dozens of times, and a magnitude more dozens of times,

So a comparatively small number then.

> respectively, which also indicates quite clearly that this:
>
> > I think adding a note to bugzilla reminding reporters that logs need
> > to be in english would be a better solution
>
> isn't going to work, and that this:

It sure wouldn't hurt (and has the advantage of not being insane).

> > than forcing it on everyone.
>
> is what we're effectively already doing, only that we require human
> intervention and a lot of time and effort to establish that.

You still seem to believe that the only thing people do with error messages
is paste them into bugzilla for you to look at. You realize that you
aren't required to know English to use Gentoo, right?


--
fonts, gcc-porting, it makes no sense how it makes no sense
toolchain, wxwidgets but i'll take it free anytime
@ gentoo.org EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662

Michał Górny 12-04-2011 07:29 AM

So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?
 
On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 04:50:00 +0100
Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Subject says it all. More and more bug attachments appear that have
> been generated with non-English locales, and it's a nuisance for both
> bug reporters and bug wranglers to request/provide the sane
> alternative that every developer should be able to read.

Will break random packages with stable Python 3.1, and current testing
Python 3.x versions.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Rich Freeman 12-04-2011 11:07 AM

So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?
 
2011/12/4 Ch*-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn <chithanh@gentoo.org>:
> I too think it is sufficient to have
> LC_MESSAGES=C
> in the default make.conf (or somewhere else where the user can easily
> change it), with a comment to leave it like this for build.log when
> reporting bugs.

++

Or if that goes too far have it commented out but still in the file -
so that users can just remove one character to implement it. This
would need to be accompanied by instructions in Bugzilla so that the
wranglers don't need to post them over and over again.

Users should be able to work in their native languages on their own
PCs (Gentoo is about choice) - the key is just to try to prevent these
kinds of issues in the first place. We already have notes about
attaching build.log - all we need to do is include the words "with
LC_MESSAGES=C to ensure logs are in English" in the note.

Rich

"Paweł Hajdan, Jr." 12-04-2011 11:09 AM

So now that we have --quiet-build as default, can we talk about a forced LC_ALL=C again?
 
On 12/4/11 12:58 PM, Ch*-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
> Mike Frysinger schrieb:
>> and in reality, you're complaining only about LC_MESSAGES, not LC_ALL or any
>> other locale category ...
>
> I too think it is sufficient to have
> LC_MESSAGES=C
> in the default make.conf (or somewhere else where the user can easily
> change it), with a comment to leave it like this for build.log when
> reporting bugs.

Sounds like a good idea - it's a good default, allows the user to
change it, and to easily use a different locale for non-portage
interactions.


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