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Old 11-30-2011, 05:23 AM
Zac Medico
 
Default sys-libs/zlib: punt from system in profiles

On 11/29/2011 08:51 PM, Duncan wrote:
> Zac Medico posted on Tue, 29 Nov 2011 18:29:20 -0800 as excerpted:
>
>> One nice thing about removing them from the system profile is that it
>> allows for greater parallelization with emerge --jobs, since packages
>> that's aren't in the system set don't trigger the code for bug 256616
>> [1] which limits parallelization as a safety precaution.
>>
>> [1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=256616
>
> And a VERY nice benefit that is, too. =:^)
>
> Except, don't dependencies of system profile packages get the same safety
> precaution applied, and at the level we're talking here, zlib, etc,
> aren't such packages going to almost certainly be dependencies of @system
> on a normal system, even if they're not in @system itself?
>
> If so, that's a relatively limited benefit in most cases.

Well, maybe there's not much parallelization benefit for sys-libs/zlib.
If it wasn't for implicit system dependencies, the system set and its
dependencies wouldn't need this kind of special treatment.
--
Thanks,
Zac
 
Old 11-30-2011, 06:43 AM
Duncan
 
Default sys-libs/zlib: punt from system in profiles

Zac Medico posted on Tue, 29 Nov 2011 22:23:59 -0800 as excerpted:

> On 11/29/2011 08:51 PM, Duncan wrote:
>> Zac Medico posted on Tue, 29 Nov 2011 18:29:20 -0800 as excerpted:
>>
>>> One nice thing about removing them from the system profile is that it
>>> allows for greater parallelization with emerge --jobs[.]
>>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=256616

>> Except, don't dependencies of system profile packages get the same
>> safety precaution applied [and such is zlib]?

> Well, maybe there's not much parallelization benefit for sys-libs/zlib.
> If it wasn't for implicit system dependencies, the system set and its
> dependencies wouldn't need this kind of special treatment.

Hmm... very good point, from a man that "oughta" know. =:^)

So while this one removal from @system isn't much, reducing @system over
time both reduces the effective footprint of the problem, and encourages
explicit dependencies in a way that both cuts down on the need for
special @system treatment in the first place, and encourages further
reductions to the system set.

The end result of that process sounds like something I can live with. =:^)

Thanks.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
 
Old 11-30-2011, 03:09 PM
Mike Frysinger
 
Default sys-libs/zlib: punt from system in profiles

On Wednesday 30 November 2011 01:23:59 Zac Medico wrote:
> If it wasn't for implicit system dependencies, the system set and its
> dependencies wouldn't need this kind of special treatment.

if it wasn't for implicit system dependencies, we'd have significant bloat in
the tree and circular deps out the wazoo

there's absolutely no reason every package should depend on sh, find, gawk, ls,
sed, grep, make, gcc, libc, as/ld

i wouldn't mind seeing gzip/bzip2/xz being auto calculated from SRC_URI ...
though it would make a system without any of those tricky to bootstrap, so
we'd have to pick at least one
-mike
 
Old 11-30-2011, 03:34 PM
Zac Medico
 
Default sys-libs/zlib: punt from system in profiles

On 11/30/2011 08:09 AM, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Wednesday 30 November 2011 01:23:59 Zac Medico wrote:
>> If it wasn't for implicit system dependencies, the system set and its
>> dependencies wouldn't need this kind of special treatment.
>
> if it wasn't for implicit system dependencies, we'd have significant bloat in
> the tree

I'm not suggesting that we do away with implicit dependencies entirely.
However, I think it's good to minimize them, as removing packages like
sys-libs/zlib from the system set tends to do.

> and circular deps out the wazoo

Ignoring circular dependencies doesn't make them go away. Ignoring
dependencies can lead to build failures that could have been avoided if
they were expressed in a way that the dependency resolver could properly
account for them.

> there's absolutely no reason every package should depend on sh, find, gawk, ls,
> sed, grep, make, gcc, libc, as/ld

Agreed, but as said, it's good to minimize these implicit deps.

> i wouldn't mind seeing gzip/bzip2/xz being auto calculated from SRC_URI ...
> though it would make a system without any of those tricky to bootstrap, so
> we'd have to pick at least one

Yeah, that would be a nice EAPI extension.
--
Thanks,
Zac
 
Old 11-30-2011, 04:40 PM
Rich Freeman
 
Default sys-libs/zlib: punt from system in profiles

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Zac Medico <zmedico@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Ignoring circular dependencies doesn't make them go away. Ignoring
> dependencies can lead to build failures that could have been avoided if
> they were expressed in a way that the dependency resolver could properly
> account for them.

++

One man's gawk is another man's KDE. A solution that expresses all
dependencies and handles them well is much more elegant than one that
requires hard-coding a list of core dependencies that we just think
are too complicated to work out.

Of course, to really get to the point where we'd have no system set at
all we'd need to somehow automate the dependency generation, since
otherwise ebuild maintenance would be very painful. Considering that
we can't even tell if a program will halt it is clearly impossible to
guarantee a perfect set of runtime dependencies. Of course, you might
be able to come up with something that is good enough - especially
when combined with the ability to add them in manually.

None of this completely solves the fundamental bootstrapping problem.
However, a full set of dependency specifications would let you at
least determine what the minimal bootstrap actually is.

I see all of this as more of an aspirational goal - one that we
shouldn't fret about not being able to achieve, or subject ourselves
to tremendous pain to get a little closer to. However, we also
shouldn't hold back when opportunities to take a step closer arise.

Rich
 
Old 11-30-2011, 05:06 PM
Mike Frysinger
 
Default sys-libs/zlib: punt from system in profiles

On Wednesday 30 November 2011 11:34:05 Zac Medico wrote:
> On 11/30/2011 08:09 AM, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > On Wednesday 30 November 2011 01:23:59 Zac Medico wrote:
> >> If it wasn't for implicit system dependencies, the system set and its
> >> dependencies wouldn't need this kind of special treatment.
> >
> > if it wasn't for implicit system dependencies, we'd have significant
> > bloat in the tree
>
> I'm not suggesting that we do away with implicit dependencies entirely.
> However, I think it's good to minimize them, as removing packages like
> sys-libs/zlib from the system set tends to do.

i'm good with this as well which is why i've been culling the simpler stuff

> > and circular deps out the wazoo
>
> Ignoring circular dependencies doesn't make them go away. Ignoring
> dependencies can lead to build failures that could have been avoided if
> they were expressed in a way that the dependency resolver could properly
> account for them.

that doesn't address the previously mentioned issue. there's absolutely no
reason why the majority of packages in the tree should have to list
"coreutils" or "sed" or "grep" in their DEPEND, nor is there any reason why
the system should have been lacking them in the first place.
-mike
 
Old 12-06-2011, 03:16 PM
Mike Frysinger
 
Default sys-libs/zlib: punt from system in profiles

On Tuesday 29 November 2011 15:09:33 Mike Frysinger wrote:
> we have USE=zlib already which should cover automatically pulling in zlib
> when necessary, and we have that by default in make.conf. so there's no
> need to explicitly list zlib as part of the system target. so time to
> drop it.

this is now punted
-mike
 

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