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Old 04-29-2011, 12:29 AM
Sebastian Pipping
 
Default Rendering the official Gentoo logo / Blender 2.04, Python 2.2

Hello!


Gentoo's official logo originates from a Blender file [1] created by
Daniel Robbis over 8 years ago. He used Blender 2.04 and Python 1.6 at
that time.

When rendering that .blend file with Blender 2.49b (or a more recent
version), Blender does not apply the reflection texture needed [2] to
give the metal look that you know. I don't know why that is. All I
know is that Blender does find the file: it's not about the location.

Trying Blender 2.04 binaries on a Windows VM, it turned out that Blender
2.04 is still able to render our logo as expected. In my eyes rendering
our logo should not depend on a proprietary operating system or binary
blobs. The source tarball of Blender 2.04 is hard to find (if available
at all), the available sources of 2.03 [7] are incomplete. Binaries of
2.04 [8] are 32bit only and crash on startup on my system.

The earliest source tarball after 2.04 that upstream offers for download
[3] is Blender 2.26. That version does not compile with GCC 4.4 and
turns out to be home with Python 2.2. In hope that this version would
be able to render our logo in the way that Blender 2.04 did, I tried
fixing compilation against GCC 4.4.5. That worked [4]. The need for
Python 2.2 became clear when all of Python 2.4, 2.4 and 2.6 made it
segfault in Python related code instantly. Therefore I tried bringing
our old Python 2.2-r7 ebuild to life. Smaller changes like -fPIC were
needed but it wasn't too hard. You can find the Python 2.2-r8 in the
betagarden overlay [6]. In the end I could do

sudo eselect python set python2.2

to compile and run Blender 2.26 and make it render g-metal.blend (after
adjusting the path to the reflection texture) with metal look in a
resolution of a few megapixel on transparent background.
I have the impression, that the rending is the same as of Blender 2.04.


However, this is not a good long-term solution. For instance Portage
doesn't operate under Python 2.2 so an ebuild for Blender 2.25 is a
tricky thing to do nowadays.

Among the options I see is the following:

A) Find out how to render g-metal.blend with recent Blender
(2.57b at best) to give pixel-identical results to Blender 2.04.
Needs an advanced Blender user ideally.

B) Port Blender 2.26 to a recent version of Python.

Are there any other options?

What do you think?

I would also like to encourage you to reproduce the process I described
to spot any problems I overlooked.

Thanks for reading up to this point.

Best,



Sebastian


[1]
http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-src/gentoo-web/blend/g-metal.blend
[2]
http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-src/gentoo-web/blend/metallandscape1.jpg
[3] http://download.blender.org/source/
[4] http://git.goodpoint.de/?p=blender-2.26.git;a=summary
[5]
http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/dev-lang/python/python-2.2-r7.ebuild?hideattic=0&view=markup
[6]
http://git.overlays.gentoo.org/gitweb/?p=proj/betagarden.git;a=commitdiff;h=a3712c45dee61717cbc0 9b39ff868af7a3ccaa89
[7] http://download.blender.org/source/chest/blender_2.03_tree.tar.gz
[8] http://download.blender.org/release/Blender2.04/
 
Old 04-29-2011, 05:46 AM
Michał Górny
 
Default Rendering the official Gentoo logo / Blender 2.04, Python 2.2

On Fri, 29 Apr 2011 02:29:42 +0200
Sebastian Pipping <sping@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Gentoo's official logo originates from a Blender file [1] created by
> Daniel Robbis over 8 years ago. He used Blender 2.04 and Python 1.6
> at that time.
>
> When rendering that .blend file with Blender 2.49b (or a more recent
> version), Blender does not apply the reflection texture needed [2] to
> give the metal look that you know. I don't know why that is. All I
> know is that Blender does find the file: it's not about the location.
>
> [...]
>
> Among the options I see is the following:
>
> A) Find out how to render g-metal.blend with recent Blender
> (2.57b at best) to give pixel-identical results to Blender 2.04.
> Needs an advanced Blender user ideally.
>
> B) Port Blender 2.26 to a recent version of Python.
>
> Are there any other options?

Maybe it's time to make the SVG variant the official logo, and leave
the blender file as a historical variant.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny
 
Old 05-01-2011, 04:10 AM
Ulrich Mueller
 
Default Rendering the official Gentoo logo / Blender 2.04, Python 2.2

>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2011, Michał Górny wrote:

>> Among the options I see is the following:
>>
>> A) Find out how to render g-metal.blend with recent Blender
>> (2.57b at best) to give pixel-identical results to Blender 2.04.
>> Needs an advanced Blender user ideally.
>>
>> B) Port Blender 2.26 to a recent version of Python.
>>
>> Are there any other options?

Could you bisect Blender to find out why it doesn't work with the new
version?

> Maybe it's time to make the SVG variant the official logo, and leave
> the blender file as a historical variant.

The Blender variant looks better though, especially at high
resolutions.

Ulrich
 
Old 05-01-2011, 06:06 AM
Michał Górny
 
Default Rendering the official Gentoo logo / Blender 2.04, Python 2.2

On Sun, 1 May 2011 06:10:02 +0200
Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org> wrote:

> > Maybe it's time to make the SVG variant the official logo, and leave
> > the blender file as a historical variant.
>
> The Blender variant looks better though, especially at high
> resolutions.

Isn't it possible to create a better SVG then? I think such a variant
would be much more portable and reproducible than blender files.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny
 
Old 05-05-2011, 01:53 AM
Sebastian Pipping
 
Default Rendering the official Gentoo logo / Blender 2.04, Python 2.2

On 05/01/2011 06:10 AM, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> Could you bisect Blender to find out why it doesn't work with the new
> version?

If 2.26 still produced good results, 2.37a already does not. Bisecting
involves fixing compilation for each version. I stopped getting 2.30 to
compile because it seemed to take forever (longer than fixing 2.26,
2.37a and 2.40 together) and two people had their hands on a port of the
logo to Blender 2.57 by then, one of them still has. It's too early to
give details. What I can say is that personally I would want a very
close match in case of a Blender-based replacement, closer than what I
have seen so far. It still seems possible though.

Best,



Sebastian
 
Old 05-05-2011, 02:31 AM
Sebastian Pipping
 
Default Rendering the official Gentoo logo / Blender 2.04, Python 2.2

On 05/01/2011 08:06 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
> Isn't it possible to create a better SVG then?

It may be. Of the three variants trying to match the Blender version
that I have seen so far, none is a replacement of equal quality on the
bling scale to my impression. They feel like tradeoffs, not like the
real thing. Maybe they try to come too close to the ray-traced
rendering, but I'm not sure if I really want to propose a different
direction either.


> I think such a variant
> would be much more portable and reproducible than blender files.

What I dislike about the idea of moving to a new logo is that we would
give up part of our culture just because we were unable to move it from
past to present to future. Imagine this dialog:

A: "Hey guys, I noticed you have a new logo?"
B: "Yeah, blender rendering changed - so we dropped it."

I don't really want to be B in that dialog. I see the pragmatic aspect
of moving to SVG but it also has the taste of giving up to me. To
vercome that taste, a very strong replacement would be needed.

If we replace the Blender "g" we may also need a substitute for the
red-white Blender "gentoo" as seen at
http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/*docroot*/images/gentoo-new.gif
if just for the sake of consistency.

I am wondering what effect the Blender nature of a logo does have on the
capability and will of people to create fan art based on it compared to
an SVG version. It seems like there is only a handful of 3D Gentoo
wallpapers but does that mean it would have been more with an SVG
version, instead? On what levels could SVG work as a catalyst?

If we ported the logo to Blender 2.57 now: what can we do to not be
running after Blender rendering changes for all time or to reduce their
impact on us? Is this a natural cost or an evil one?

Just my 2 cents.

Best,



Sebastian
 
Old 05-05-2011, 05:36 AM
Sebastian Pipping
 
Default Rendering the official Gentoo logo / Blender 2.04, Python 2.2

On 05/01/2011 06:10 AM, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> Could you bisect Blender to find out why it doesn't work with the new
> version?

I tried a few more versions now. While Blender 2.31a still applies the
reflection texture, Blender 2.32 does not anymore. At least on
<http://download.blender.org/source/> these two appear as consecutive
releases. Both of these seem to run fine with Python 2.4.6, which is
still in Gentoo. Without good image diffs, I cannot tell for sure if
the rendering has changed since Blender 2.04.

Best,



Sebastian
 
Old 05-05-2011, 05:48 AM
Michał Górny
 
Default Rendering the official Gentoo logo / Blender 2.04, Python 2.2

On Thu, 05 May 2011 04:31:10 +0200
Sebastian Pipping <sping@gentoo.org> wrote:

> > I think such a variant
> > would be much more portable and reproducible than blender files.
>
> What I dislike about the idea of moving to a new logo is that we would
> give up part of our culture just because we were unable to move it
> from past to present to future. Imagine this dialog:
>
> A: "Hey guys, I noticed you have a new logo?"
> B: "Yeah, blender rendering changed - so we dropped it."

Well, the concept is to have the same logo but in new format. Of
course, that would require some of professional work to ensure
best-match rendering if even possible.

And I don't think it's really giving up. It's just moving
to the future, putting back good, ol' things in the museum. However,
it'd be still best to fix it.

> If we replace the Blender "g" we may also need a substitute for the
> red-white Blender "gentoo" as seen at
> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/*docroot*/images/gentoo-new.gif
> if just for the sake of consistency.

True.

> I am wondering what effect the Blender nature of a logo does have on
> the capability and will of people to create fan art based on it
> compared to an SVG version. It seems like there is only a handful of
> 3D Gentoo wallpapers but does that mean it would have been more with
> an SVG version, instead? On what levels could SVG work as a catalyst?

As I see the concept of a logo, it is bound to a pretty strict
rendering. It's fun to have it in 3D but I'm not sure if, say, rotating
it or changing lighting would still make it the same logo.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny
 
Old 05-05-2011, 01:44 PM
Marijn
 
Default Rendering the official Gentoo logo / Blender 2.04, Python 2.2

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Hash: SHA1

On 05/05/11 07:36, Sebastian Pipping wrote:
> On 05/01/2011 06:10 AM, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
>> Could you bisect Blender to find out why it doesn't work with the new
>> version?
>
> I tried a few more versions now. While Blender 2.31a still applies the
> reflection texture, Blender 2.32 does not anymore. At least on
> <http://download.blender.org/source/> these two appear as consecutive
> releases. Both of these seem to run fine with Python 2.4.6, which is
> still in Gentoo. Without good image diffs, I cannot tell for sure if
> the rendering has changed since Blender 2.04.

I confess I know next to nothing about Blender, but what exactly makes
it so hard to port the logo to a recent version?

Marijn
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Old 05-05-2011, 04:47 PM
Sebastian Pipping
 
Default Rendering the official Gentoo logo / Blender 2.04, Python 2.2

On 05/05/2011 03:44 PM, Marijn wrote:
> I confess I know next to nothing about Blender, but what exactly makes
> it so hard to port the logo to a recent version?

My experience modelling in Blender is zero, so it's hard to tell to
right now me. From a few cases of remaking vector art from raster
images in Inkscape, I can imagine that it's difficult to get very close
in Blender too, if not more. I hope to have a better answer soon.

Best,



Sebastian
 

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