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Old 04-13-2011, 07:56 PM
William Hubbs
 
Default openrc portage news item

All,

here is the latest update with typos fixed.

William

Title: Baselayout update
Author: Christian Faulhammer <fauli@gentoo.org>
Author: William Hubbs <williamh@gentoo.org>
Content-Type: text/plain
Posted: 2011-05-01
Revision: 1
News-Item-Format: 1.0
Display-If-Installed: <sys-apps/baselayout-2

The baselayout package provides files which all systems must have in
order to function properly. You are currently using version 1.x, which
has several issues. The most significant of these is that the included
init system is written entirely in bash, which makes it slow and
not very flexible.

In the near future, you will see an update for sys-apps/baselayout to
2.x and a new package, sys-apps/openrc. It is recommended that you
perform this update as soon as possible.

After you install these packages, please do not reboot your system
until you follow the upgrade guide located at
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/openrc-migration.xml.

It is important that you follow the guide as soon as possible after
these packages are upgraded. Otherwise, there is a chance that your
system will not reboot properly.
 
Old 04-13-2011, 07:58 PM
William Hubbs
 
Default openrc portage news item

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 08:41:16PM +0200, "Pawe?? Hajdan, Jr." wrote:
> On 4/13/11 8:15 PM, William Hubbs wrote:
> > The baselayout package provides files which all systems must have in
> > order to function properly. You are currently using version 1.x, which
> > has several issues. The most significant of these is that the included
> > init system is written entirely in bash, which makes it slow and
> > not very flexable.
>
> I think it would be worth it to mention other problems too (just a list
> of most important bugs if that makes sense).

Does anyone on the list have any particular suggestions for what should
be mentioned?

Thanks,

William
 
Old 04-14-2011, 05:30 AM
justin
 
Default openrc portage news item

On 13/04/11 21:56, William Hubbs wrote:
> All,
>
> here is the latest update with typos fixed.
>
> William
>

To me, it doesn't makes it totally clear that you screw everything when
rebooting before following the guide. Perhaps this should be made much
clearer.

justin
 
Old 04-14-2011, 07:21 AM
Dirkjan Ochtman
 
Default openrc portage news item

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 07:30, justin <jlec@gentoo.org> wrote:
> To me, it doesn't makes it totally clear that you screw everything when
> rebooting before following the guide. Perhaps this should be made much
> clearer.

Huh?

"After you install these packages, please do not reboot your system
until you follow the upgrade guide located at
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/openrc-migration.xml.

It is important that you follow the guide as soon as possible after
these packages are upgraded. Otherwise, there is a chance that your
system will not reboot properly."

Seem quite clear to me.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
 
Old 04-14-2011, 08:09 AM
Duncan
 
Default openrc portage news item

William Hubbs posted on Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:58:51 -0500 as excerpted:

> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 08:41:16PM +0200, "Pawe?? Hajdan, Jr." wrote:
>> On 4/13/11 8:15 PM, William Hubbs wrote:
>> > The baselayout package provides files which all systems must have in
>> > order to function properly. You are currently using version 1.x,
>> > which has several issues. The most significant of these is that the
>> > included init system is written entirely in bash, which makes it slow
>> > and not very flexable.
>>
>> I think it would be worth it to mention other problems too (just a list
>> of most important bugs if that makes sense).
>
> Does anyone on the list have any particular suggestions for what should
> be mentioned?

The definition of "important" might vary per person, but, while it has
been awhile since I ran baselayout-1, here's what I recall that I'd
consider significant.

1) While baselayout-1 had a parallel boot option, it was quite broken and
(partly or entirely, not sure which) non-functional. The same thing in
baselayout-2/openrc works WELL and I use it all the time. (Given the
emphasis placed on this in the media, the various boot-timing contests,
etc, and the fact that this feature puts Gentoo in-play again in regard to
speed-boots, it's a pretty big positive in favor of upgrading.)

2) In baselayout-1, the early-boot wasn't actually dependency based, but
rather, was strict-serial-order based on a list of IIRC four services
started in the exact order they were listed. (clock or whatever the
baselayout-1 name was, was one of them, IDR the others). OpenRC/
baselayout-2 is fully dependency based at every stage.

I mentioned both of these points earlier in a different context.

FWIW/IMHO, I don't believe the news item needs mentioning that it was bash
that made it slow and inflexible. Most users don't so much care whether
it's C or bash or java that made it so, only that it was. I'd personally
put more emphasis on the /how/ instead of the /why/, as I believe that's
what most users want to know. The above two points support that, thus,
reworking that whole bit:

"""
You are currently using version 1.x, which was slow and inflexible. It
was slow in part because the parallel boot option was broken, and
inflexible in part because dependencies didn't work until later in the
boot process, so the first few services had to be started in order
according to an arbitrary list.
"""

No mention of bash as a reason because that's an internal implementation
deal I as an admin don't want or need to care about. What difference will
it make in the way my system boots and how will that be better, that's
what I as an admin want to know.

(That said, the above can surely be improved as well. The ideas conveyed
are better I believe, more direct to what a Gentoo user/admin will likely
want to know, but I'm my wording isn't right, yet.)

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
 
Old 04-14-2011, 08:19 AM
justin
 
Default openrc portage news item

On 14/04/11 09:21, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 07:30, justin <jlec@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> To me, it doesn't makes it totally clear that you screw everything when
>> rebooting before following the guide. Perhaps this should be made much
>> clearer.
>
> Huh?
>
> "After you install these packages, please do not reboot your system
> until you follow the upgrade guide located at
> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/openrc-migration.xml.
>
> It is important that you follow the guide as soon as possible after
> these packages are upgraded. Otherwise, there is a chance that your
> system will not reboot properly."
>
> Seem quite clear to me.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dirkjan


_Underline_ or write it capital, I don't know. For us and those who know
gentoo this is clear. But user tend to over read things. I would do a
bet that a number of people will cry, because they just rebooted,
because they stopped reading till there; beside those who do not even
read the news item.
So really would suggest doing ugly things like *ATTENTION* or so.

justin
 
Old 04-14-2011, 08:40 AM
Duncan
 
Default openrc portage news item

Dirkjan Ochtman posted on Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:21:48 +0200 as excerpted:

> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 07:30, justin <jlec@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> To me, it doesn't makes it totally clear that you screw everything when
>> rebooting before following the guide. Perhaps this should be made much
>> clearer.
>
> Huh?
>
> "After you install these packages, please do not reboot your system
> until you follow the upgrade guide located at
> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/openrc-migration.xml.
>
> It is important that you follow the guide as soon as possible after
> these packages are upgraded. Otherwise, there is a chance that your
> system will not reboot properly."
>
> Seem quite clear to me.

From my read, while it does actually say it's important, the politeness
with which it does so don't well convey the true importance and urgency of
the situation.

If there's a fire, you don't say "Please, excuse me for interrupting, but
there's a fire and at your convenience, please make your way to the
exit." Rather, it's "*FIRE*! Please STAY CALM. WALK DON'T RUN. The
exit is OVER THERE. Make your way to it IMMEDIATELY!"

So more along the lines of:

"""
After installing these packages, please DO NOT REBOOT
until you follow the upgrade guide located at
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/openrc-migration.xml.

If you do not follow the guide as soon as possible after
these packages are upgraded and you reboot or crash
without doing so, the system will likely fail to
boot properly, and you may be looking at some time in
manual recovery mode to fix it.
"""

Yes, the DO NOT REBOOT is shouting, not exactly polite,
but that's arguably what's called for in this situation.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
 
Old 04-14-2011, 10:32 AM
Kfir Lavi
 
Default openrc portage news item

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 9:15 PM, William Hubbs <williamh@gentoo.org> wrote:


All,



this is the portage news item I am planning on committing to the tree.



This is based on an earlier version written by Christian Fallhammer.



If there are no suggestions for additions or corrections, this will be

committed on 5/1.



Thanks,



William



Hi,
When i run world update, I usually don't really check all the written stuff.
If I do this, I'm sure a lot more Gentoo users do the same.*
So do expect people rebooting the machine without checking what your have wrote.


This can be a major headache if you have few systems that are doing auto updates.
I would solve this issue by stopping the emerge and getting the attention of the user.
If I don't get the attention of the user, no openrc will be installed.


It should be something like emerge -C ... 1 .2 3 4 5...

To conclude, you can't issue such a change without proper confirmation from the user.

Regards,
Kfir
 
Old 04-14-2011, 10:32 AM
Kfir Lavi
 
Default openrc portage news item

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 9:15 PM, William Hubbs <williamh@gentoo.org> wrote:


All,



this is the portage news item I am planning on committing to the tree.



This is based on an earlier version written by Christian Fallhammer.



If there are no suggestions for additions or corrections, this will be

committed on 5/1.



Thanks,



William



Hi,
When i run world update, I usually don't really check all the written stuff.
If I do this, I'm sure a lot more Gentoo users do the same.*
So do expect people rebooting the machine without checking what your have wrote.


This can be a major headache if you have few systems that are doing auto updates.
I would solve this issue by stopping the emerge and getting the attention of the user.
If I don't get the attention of the user, no openrc will be installed.


It should be something like emerge -C ... 1 .2 3 4 5...

To conclude, you can't issue such a change without proper confirmation from the user.

Regards,
Kfir
 
Old 04-14-2011, 10:51 AM
Tomá? Chvátal
 
Default openrc portage news item

On Thursday 14 of April 2011 13:32:04 Kfir Lavi wrote:
> When i run world update, I usually don't really check all the written stuff.
>
> If I do this, I'm sure a lot more Gentoo users do the same.
> So do expect people rebooting the machine without checking what your have
> wrote.
> This can be a major headache if you have few systems that are doing auto
> updates.
> I would solve this issue by stopping the emerge and getting the attention of
> the user.
> If I don't get the attention of the user, no openrc will be installed.
> It should be something like emerge -C ... 1 .2 3 4 5...
>
> To conclude, you can't issue such a change without proper confirmation from
> the user.
>
This was discussed multiple times, news items are to be read.
Users ignore elog informations/web announcements/... so it was agreed that
news item is agressive enough to user so they must read it.
If they don't do so it is just their fault.
And no runtime changing for portage where it expect some input is seriously
stupid idea, most of us script updates in batch and noone would actualy read
it.

Never the less as I said we expect user to read that stuff and if he does not
he is on his own due to his dumb approach.
--
Tomáš Chvátal
Gentoo Linux Developer [Cluster/Council/KDE/QA/Sci/X11]
E-Mail : scarabeus@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 94A4 5CCD 85D3 DE24 FE99 F924 1C1E 9CDE 0341 4587
GnuPG ID : 03414587
 

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