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Old 04-14-2011, 11:03 AM
Pacho Ramos
 
Default openrc portage news item

El jue, 14-04-2011 a las 12:51 +0200, Tomá? Chvátal escribió:
> On Thursday 14 of April 2011 13:32:04 Kfir Lavi wrote:
> > When i run world update, I usually don't really check all the written stuff.
> >
> > If I do this, I'm sure a lot more Gentoo users do the same.
> > So do expect people rebooting the machine without checking what your have
> > wrote.
> > This can be a major headache if you have few systems that are doing auto
> > updates.
> > I would solve this issue by stopping the emerge and getting the attention of
> > the user.
> > If I don't get the attention of the user, no openrc will be installed.
> > It should be something like emerge -C ... 1 .2 3 4 5...
> >
> > To conclude, you can't issue such a change without proper confirmation from
> > the user.
> >
> This was discussed multiple times, news items are to be read.
> Users ignore elog informations/web announcements/... so it was agreed that
> news item is agressive enough to user so they must read it.
> If they don't do so it is just their fault.
> And no runtime changing for portage where it expect some input is seriously
> stupid idea, most of us script updates in batch and noone would actualy read
> it.
>
> Never the less as I said we expect user to read that stuff and if he does not
> he is on his own due to his dumb approach.

I also thought about this problem: I usually read news items before
updating, but I have also seen how other people with root access to
other machines I mainly maintain forget from time to time to do so.

This is why I opened:
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=363567

As news items are really there to be read BEFORE updating, I think that
it should be enforced to prevent people from updating before reading
them (I have also read Lars comment, I obviously have no problem at all
with adding some option to revert this behavior, but I still think
default behavior should be to prevent update if news items are not
read).
 
Old 04-14-2011, 11:21 AM
Thomas Beierlein
 
Default openrc portage news item

On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:51:55 +0200
Tomá? Chvátal <scarabeus@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Thursday 14 of April 2011 13:32:04 Kfir Lavi wrote:
> > When i run world update, I usually don't really check all the
> > written stuff.
> >
> > If I do this, I'm sure a lot more Gentoo users do the same.
> > So do expect people rebooting the machine without checking what
> > your have wrote.
> > This can be a major headache if you have few systems that are doing
> > auto updates.
> > I would solve this issue by stopping the emerge and getting the
> > attention of the user.
> > If I don't get the attention of the user, no openrc will be
> > installed. It should be something like emerge -C ... 1 .2 3 4 5...
> >
> > To conclude, you can't issue such a change without proper
> > confirmation from the user.
> >
> This was discussed multiple times, news items are to be read.
> Users ignore elog informations/web announcements/... so it was agreed
> that news item is agressive enough to user so they must read it.
> If they don't do so it is just their fault.
> And no runtime changing for portage where it expect some input is
> seriously stupid idea, most of us script updates in batch and noone
> would actualy read it.
>
> Never the less as I said we expect user to read that stuff and if he
> does not he is on his own due to his dumb approach.

Maybe we should underline our intention by having that policy
documented in the installation handbook. A good place may be section 2
"Working with
Gentoo" (http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=2).

At least all newbies will stumble upon it once.

Regards,
Thomas.
 
Old 04-14-2011, 11:27 AM
Sylvain Alain
 
Default openrc portage news item

2011/4/14 Thomas Beierlein <tomjbe@gentoo.org>

On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:51:55 +0200

Tomá? Chvátal <scarabeus@gentoo.org> wrote:



> On Thursday 14 of April 2011 13:32:04 Kfir Lavi wrote:

> > When i run world update, I usually don't really check all the

> > written stuff.

> >

> > If I do this, I'm sure a lot more Gentoo users do the same.

> > So do expect people rebooting the machine without checking what

> > your have wrote.

> > This can be a major headache if you have few systems that are doing

> > auto updates.

> > I would solve this issue by stopping the emerge and getting the

> > attention of the user.

> > If I don't get the attention of the user, no openrc will be

> > installed. It should be something like emerge -C ... 1 .2 3 4 5...

> >

> > To conclude, you can't issue such a change without proper

> > confirmation from the user.

> >

> This was discussed multiple times, news items are to be read.

> Users ignore elog informations/web announcements/... so it was agreed

> that news item is agressive enough to user so they must read it.

> If they don't do so it is just their fault.

> And no runtime changing for portage where it expect some input is

> seriously stupid idea, most of us script updates in batch and noone

> would actualy read it.

>

> Never the less as I said we expect user to read that stuff and if he

> does not he is on his own due to his dumb approach.



Maybe we should underline our intention by having that policy

documented in the installation handbook. A good place may be section 2

"Working with

Gentoo" (http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=2).



At least all newbies will stumble upon it once.



Regards,

* * * *Thomas.


Yeah, before the stabilization of OpenRc and Baselayout 2.x, the Gentoo handbook really need to be updated too.

I don't see how a newbie should be able to install his box with an outdated handbook.

--
Salut
alp
Sylvain
 
Old 04-14-2011, 11:44 AM
Rich Freeman
 
Default openrc portage news item

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 4:09 AM, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
> FWIW/IMHO, I don't believe the news item needs mentioning that it was bash
> that made it slow and inflexible. *Most users don't so much care whether
> it's C or bash or java that made it so, only that it was.

If this were Ubuntu I'd be inclined to agree. However, I think that
most Gentoo users would be interested. Maybe I have a different
perspective because I just gave a talk on booting two nights ago at an
LUG, but I wasn't even the one to bring up the shortcomings of bash in
the typical linux SysVInit-based service scripts. Various approaches
that were discussed included symlinking /bin/sh to dash instead of
bash, and C-based solutions (or a combination of both). It was
interesting to hear that at least a few other distros struggle with
bashisms in their init scripts, but no so much due to licensing/BSD
issues but because of a desire to use dash which does not support all
bashisms.

No need to go into gory details, but mentioning that it is C-based
instead of bash-based seems reasonable. Granted, we're not really
getting rid of one of the problems with bash, which isn't just
/sbin/rc but rather it includes the init scripts themselves (every one
of which requires spawning a new bash, and many spawn additional
processes like sed/awk/etc).

Rich
 
Old 04-14-2011, 02:44 PM
Dale
 
Default openrc portage news item

Duncan wrote:


> From my read, while it does actually say it's important, the politeness
with which it does so don't well convey the true importance and urgency of
the situation.

If there's a fire, you don't say "Please, excuse me for interrupting, but
there's a fire and at your convenience, please make your way to the
exit." Rather, it's "*FIRE*! Please STAY CALM. WALK DON'T RUN. The
exit is OVER THERE. Make your way to it IMMEDIATELY!"

So more along the lines of:

"""
After installing these packages, please DO NOT REBOOT
until you follow the upgrade guide located at
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/openrc-migration.xml.

If you do not follow the guide as soon as possible after
these packages are upgraded and you reboot or crash
without doing so, the system will likely fail to
boot properly, and you may be looking at some time in
manual recovery mode to fix it.
"""

Yes, the DO NOT REBOOT is shouting, not exactly polite,
but that's arguably what's called for in this situation.




Plus having it in all caps makes it stand out. If a person even looks
at the message, they will see that at least. Then hopefully, they will
read the rest. I think bold would be nice to tho. It's not like this
is not really really important.


Even with that, I see a few people not even noticing it and the next
reboot going badly.


Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 04-14-2011, 03:41 PM
Matthew Summers
 
Default openrc portage news item

Hi,

I have a few suggestions regarding this major change to Gentoo systems.

1. We should determine and then announce the precise date (appears to
be in May) and time that baselayout-2 will be stabilized via:
1.1 A front page News item on www.g.o (PR team assemble!),
1.2 The main MLs (gentoo-announce, gentoo-users, etc),
1.3 Add a link to the www news item to /topic in #gentoo, and
1.4 Post a sticky topic in the Forum.
all in addition to the eselect news item under discussion here. The
above would link to the migration guide too.

The rationale for this effort at getting the word out is to prevent
users from hosing their system(s). While I tend to agree that users
should read these eselect news items, its often not the case.
Therefore I recommend shooting for the widest possible distribution of
this information. Also, this gives PR a chance to let the world know
about openrc and its benefits to Gentoo.

2. We should prepare a quick "recover-your-system" guide (could also
create a script too) that can be quickly linked to for user support.
This will save time for people providing support via IRC, email, etc,
and give people a reasonable means of system recovery without huge
pain.

3. Update the handbook to reflect these changes as soon as possible,
and have that all go public simultaneously with the stabilization.

4. I have attached an edited and unfinished version of the original
news item for review. I attempted to be succinct.

This is a really exciting and potentially also rather
anxiety-provoking change for our user base and Gentoo. We all know
that the new baselayout is awesome, and users will find out soon
enough. We simply need to make our best effort at easing the
transition so we minimize the number of casualties.

Thank you,
Matt
--
Matthew W. Summers
Title: Baselayout update
Author: Christian Faulhammer <fauli@gentoo.org>
Author: William Hubbs <williamh@gentoo.org>
Content-Type: text/plain
Posted: 2011-05-01
Revision: 1
News-Item-Format: 1.0
Display-If-Installed: <sys-apps/baselayout-2

On May XX 2011, you will see an update for sys-apps/baselayout to
2.x and a new package, sys-apps/openrc. It is recommended that you
perform this update as soon as possible. Please note, it is
__Absolutely_Critical__ that you follow the steps outlined in the
migration guide located at the following URL.
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/openrc-migration.xml

FAILURE TO FOLLOW THE MIGRATION GUIDE
CAN RESULT IN AN UNBOOTABLE SYSTEM!

For more information or supprt regarding this change please see the
following:
- link to news item (should contain info regarding where to obtain support)
- link to recover-system guide
- link to handbook
 
Old 04-14-2011, 04:12 PM
Dale
 
Default openrc portage news item

Matthew Summers wrote:

Hi,

I have a few suggestions regarding this major change to Gentoo systems.

1. We should determine and then announce the precise date (appears to
be in May) and time that baselayout-2 will be stabilized via:
1.1 A front page News item on www.g.o (PR team assemble!),
1.2 The main MLs (gentoo-announce, gentoo-users, etc),
1.3 Add a link to the www news item to /topic in #gentoo, and
1.4 Post a sticky topic in the Forum.
all in addition to the eselect news item under discussion here. The
above would link to the migration guide too.

The rationale for this effort at getting the word out is to prevent
users from hosing their system(s). While I tend to agree that users
should read these eselect news items, its often not the case.
Therefore I recommend shooting for the widest possible distribution of
this information. Also, this gives PR a chance to let the world know
about openrc and its benefits to Gentoo.

2. We should prepare a quick "recover-your-system" guide (could also
create a script too) that can be quickly linked to for user support.
This will save time for people providing support via IRC, email, etc,
and give people a reasonable means of system recovery without huge
pain.

3. Update the handbook to reflect these changes as soon as possible,
and have that all go public simultaneously with the stabilization.

4. I have attached an edited and unfinished version of the original
news item for review. I attempted to be succinct.

This is a really exciting and potentially also rather
anxiety-provoking change for our user base and Gentoo. We all know
that the new baselayout is awesome, and users will find out soon
enough. We simply need to make our best effort at easing the
transition so we minimize the number of casualties.

Thank you,
Matt



I wouldn't mind seeing this on the main Gentoo page as soon as
possible. Some people may not visit the Gentoo page very often, I'm one
of those. This could be done even if it has to be changed as things
update. Maybe one that it is coming and one a few days before it hits
stable in the tree.


+1 on this being a good idea. This is a really important update since
it can cause a system to be unbootable. I'm thinking about folks that
may admin a box remotely too.


If all the above is done and people miss that it is coming, I think it
could safely be said that everything that could be done was done to
inform people. The list above includes about every means of
communication Gentoo has.


Great post.

Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 04-14-2011, 06:48 PM
William Hubbs
 
Default openrc portage news item

Hi Matt,


On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 10:41:23AM -0500, Matthew Summers wrote:
> 1. We should determine and then announce the precise date (appears to
> be in May) and time that baselayout-2 will be stabilized via:
> 1.1 A front page News item on www.g.o (PR team assemble!),
> 1.2 The main MLs (gentoo-announce, gentoo-users, etc),
> 1.3 Add a link to the www news item to /topic in #gentoo, and
> 1.4 Post a sticky topic in the Forum.
> all in addition to the eselect news item under discussion here. The
> above would link to the migration guide too.

The problem is that the date is still subject to change. If we get more
bugs that we think should block stabilization, those would be fixed,
then a new release put out, then we are back to waiting 30 days unless
we make an exception to the 30 day rule.

> 2. We should prepare a quick "recover-your-system" guide (could also
> create a script too) that can be quickly linked to for user support.
> This will save time for people providing support via IRC, email, etc,
> and give people a reasonable means of system recovery without huge
> pain.

As far as I know, the only thing that can go wrong here is rebooting
after installing bl2/openrc without following the migration guide. If
you do that, the only thing you can do is boot a live cd, chroot into
the system and follow the migration guide from there.

There's not really a way I know of that we could write a script to do
that.

> 3. Update the handbook to reflect these changes as soon as possible,
> and have that all go public simultaneously with the stabilization.

There is a bug that is blocked by the tracker for this.

> 4. I have attached an edited and unfinished version of the original
> news item for review. I attempted to be succinct.

Ok, I took your news item, and I'll look it over. I may add more to it
about what will happen if you do not follow the migration guide.
 
Old 04-15-2011, 02:04 PM
Peter Hjalmarsson
 
Default openrc portage news item

tor 2011-04-14 klockan 08:09 +0000 skrev Duncan:
> 1) While baselayout-1 had a parallel boot option, it was quite broken and
> (partly or entirely, not sure which) non-functional. The same thing in
> baselayout-2/openrc works WELL and I use it all the time. (Given the
> emphasis placed on this in the media, the various boot-timing contests,
> etc, and the fact that this feature puts Gentoo in-play again in regard to
> speed-boots, it's a pretty big positive in favor of upgrading.)
>

This feature is still not really perfect, at least not perfect enought.
Use squid on a system where it takes longer for its daemon to exist
(like my router, where the media is a intel SSD, 4GB memory and a AMD
Athlon 2x on the AM3 socket) and you will see lots of outputs from
openrc about all those scripts waiting for it to end...

So maybe when that feature is ready to be enabled by default?

Regards
Peter Hjalmarsson
 
Old 04-15-2011, 07:01 PM
Duncan
 
Default openrc portage news item

Peter Hjalmarsson posted on Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:04:09 +0200 as excerpted:

> [parallel boot] feature is still not really perfect, at least not
> perfect enought. Use squid on a system where it takes longer for its
> daemon to exist (like my router, where the media is a intel SSD,
> 4GB memory and a AMD Athlon 2x on the AM3 socket) and you will see
> lots of outputs from openrc about all those scripts waiting for it
> to end...

If you're talking about the 50...40... etc wait if something takes longer
than 10 seconds (I get it here on startup with ntp-client), I'd argue
that's demonstration of the feature's maturity.

What can start/stop does. Other things wait, with a (configurable)
timeout until their dependency comes up (or goes down, at shutdown). If
the wait is more than 10 seconds, the system tells you what is going on.

That's as designed and IMO a good thing. What's broken about it?

> So maybe when that feature is ready to be enabled by default?

I believe it's ready for everyone to give a try. If it doesn't work or
they prefer the more ordered output of a serial boot, despite the longer
wait time, fine, but it'll work for most, with possible tweaking of the
the timeout, the services that don't timeout at all (fscks, by default),
or fine dependency ordering, if necessary.

To have the system take far longer to POST than from end of POST to
waiting for me to login (despite the idle-wait for ntp-client), is very
nice indeed. =:^)

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
 

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