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Old 01-02-2011, 02:19 PM
"Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto"
 
Default Deprecate EAPIs 1 and 2?

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On 31-12-2010 10:02, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> Hi,
>
> after approval of EAPI 4, there are now 5 different EAPIs available,
> and it's hard to remember what features are offered by which EAPI.
>
> So maybe it's about time that we deprecate EAPIs 0 and 1 for new
> ebuilds. As a first step, a warning could be added to repoman that
> would be triggered whenever a new ebuild with an EAPI less than 2 is
> committed.

I agree that having too many EAPI versions around can only lead to
confusion. Furthermore, it can require extra work from developers to
ensure compatibility for ebuilds and more importantly eclasses.
Instead of deprecating EAPIs 0 and 1, I'd suggest we deprecate EAPIs 1
and 2, though. As others have recalled, we'll have to maintain EAPI 0
around indefinitely, and EAPI 3 includes all the features in EAPIs 1 and
2. This way we can leave the system set packages alone.

> At a later time, the warning could be changed to an error. When most
> of the tree has been updated to EAPI 2 or newer, we could also think
> about actively converting the remaining ebuilds. (Currently this
> doesn't look feasible though, as about half of the tree is still at
> EAPI=0. [1])

Sounds a good idea (for EAPIs 1 and 2).

> Opinions?
>
> Ulrich
>
> [1] <http://blogs.gentoo.org/alexxy/2010/11/06/some-interesting-stats-about-gentoo-portage-tree/>
>

One way we could drop EAPI 0 would be if we do a major review of tree
and repo formats to improve upgrade paths, which would however likely
require breaking backwards compatibility at such point.
I believe such a change would only be acceptable, if we would pack
enough features and safety measures that it would ensure another break
would not need to be done for a long time.

- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:02 PM
Petteri Räty
 
Default Deprecate EAPIs 1 and 2?

On 01/02/2011 05:19 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:

>
>
> One way we could drop EAPI 0 would be if we do a major review of tree
> and repo formats to improve upgrade paths, which would however likely
> require breaking backwards compatibility at such point.
> I believe such a change would only be acceptable, if we would pack
> enough features and safety measures that it would ensure another break
> would not need to be done for a long time.
>

It's quite likely that if you are currently on a system with Portage
that does not understand EAPI 1 there's so many obstacles along the
upgrade path that a clean install makes more sense. Maybe someone is
willing to test this so that we actually know if there is an upgrade
path from EAPI 0 available any more.

Regards,
Petteri
 
Old 01-02-2011, 06:24 PM
Roy Bamford
 
Default Deprecate EAPIs 1 and 2?

On 2011.01.02 16:02, Petteri Räty wrote:
> On 01/02/2011 05:19 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > One way we could drop EAPI 0 would be if we do a major review of
> tree
> > and repo formats to improve upgrade paths, which would however
> likely
> > require breaking backwards compatibility at such point.
> > I believe such a change would only be acceptable, if we would pack
> > enough features and safety measures that it would ensure another
> break
> > would not need to be done for a long time.
> >
>
> It's quite likely that if you are currently on a system with Portage
> that does not understand EAPI 1 there's so many obstacles along the
> upgrade path that a clean install makes more sense. Maybe someone is
> willing to test this so that we actually know if there is an upgrade
> path from EAPI 0 available any more.
>
> Regards,
> Petteri
>
>

There is an upgrade path from a pure EAPI0 system but it starts with a
visit to the tinderbox as portage and python block one another.

Some other interesting things along the way:-
You need to incrementally update gcc and glibc as there is some
mutual blockage there too.
libpng-1.2, xorg and libexpat too if the box is old enough. How far do
you want to go back?

Its a very educational experience but a reinstall is faster.
The real killer is that some core system packages need EAPI>0 to build.

Personally, I don't regard tinderbox as any part of any officially
supported upgrade path.

--
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees
 
Old 01-02-2011, 08:04 PM
Joshua Saddler
 
Default Deprecate EAPIs 1 and 2?

On Sun, 02 Jan 2011 19:24:14 +0000
Roy Bamford <neddyseagoon@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Some other interesting things along the way:-
> You need to incrementally update gcc and glibc as there is some
> mutual blockage there too.
> libpng-1.2, xorg and libexpat too if the box is old enough. How far
> do you want to go back?
>
> Its a very educational experience but a reinstall is faster.
> The real killer is that some core system packages need EAPI>0 to
> build.
>
> Personally, I don't regard tinderbox as any part of any officially
> supported upgrade path.

Up until the present EAPI era, we've supported upgrading from very
ancient systems. We've never required users to completely reinstall.
Check our upgrade doc:

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-upgrading.xml

There's a constant stream of help requests on the forums and IRC from
folks upgrading from years-old installations. Usually it's from fokls
who've been given some never-updated, faithfully running Gentoo
server, sometimes from the pre-2004.X days. Our upgrade instructions
work to a point, and then Portage/python and other system packages
stop working, thanks to the differing EAPI versions. And *then*, as
Roy mentioned, there's the whole separate
rebuild-expat-and-similar-libs sequence of failures.

These are the kinds of things for which there's no canonical,
official upgrade path. It's entirely trial-by-error, which sucks for
end users who were expecting to follow our upgrade guide as-is, but
then the EAPI shifts bit 'em in the butt. Users should not be told
"just reinstall," since often that's not an option.

Whatever you folks eventually settle on, please send patches and
suggestions to the GDP for our upgrade guide. I'd prefer that users
have a possible upgrade path from *any* profile/version of Gentoo up
through the present. If you decide not to support anything older than
version X and require reinstalling or some other set of procedures,
please let the GDP know via our ML or bugzilla.
 
Old 01-02-2011, 08:11 PM
Petteri Räty
 
Default Deprecate EAPIs 1 and 2?

On 01/02/2011 11:04 PM, Joshua Saddler wrote:
>
> Whatever you folks eventually settle on, please send patches and
> suggestions to the GDP for our upgrade guide. I'd prefer that users
> have a possible upgrade path from *any* profile/version of Gentoo up
> through the present. If you decide not to support anything older than
> version X and require reinstalling or some other set of procedures,
> please let the GDP know via our ML or bugzilla.
>

The current hard requirement is one year:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20091109-summary.txt

The follow up discussion probably didn't end up in any concrete
decisions. If we want to actually make sure upgrades from old installs
(>1 year) work then we should setup some kind of a bot doing upgrades.
It would then provide the documentation for the upgrade path and make
sure it keeps working.

Regards,
Petteri
 
Old 01-02-2011, 08:46 PM
Dale
 
Default Deprecate EAPIs 1 and 2?

Petteri Räty wrote:

On 01/02/2011 11:04 PM, Joshua Saddler wrote:


Whatever you folks eventually settle on, please send patches and
suggestions to the GDP for our upgrade guide. I'd prefer that users
have a possible upgrade path from *any* profile/version of Gentoo up
through the present. If you decide not to support anything older than
version X and require reinstalling or some other set of procedures,
please let the GDP know via our ML or bugzilla.



The current hard requirement is one year:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20091109-summary.txt

The follow up discussion probably didn't end up in any concrete
decisions. If we want to actually make sure upgrades from old installs
(>1 year) work then we should setup some kind of a bot doing upgrades.
It would then provide the documentation for the upgrade path and make
sure it keeps working.

Regards,
Petteri




As a regular reader of gentoo-user, if someone has not updated in more than a year, we almost always recommend a re-install. Maybe save /etc, /home and the world file and then start from scratch on the rest. As a user since the 1.4 days, I would never expect that much backward compatibility. The OS just has to many changes to be able to do that.

Also, I think going back that far would mean holding up progress as well. It's hard to move forward if all you worry about is the past. It's good to learn from the past but not to use it as a boat anchor.

That said, if there was some radical change that required a reinstall and the grass was much greener on the other side, I would do it. That's just me. I'm not sure what would require that to happen but thought it worth mentioning. I wouldn't want that to happen to often tho. It's not like the install is point, click and walk away. o_O

My $0.02 worth.

Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 01-03-2011, 01:36 AM
Rich Freeman
 
Default Deprecate EAPIs 1 and 2?

On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> As a regular reader of gentoo-user, if someone has not updated in more than
> a year, we almost always recommend a re-install. *Maybe save /etc, /home and
> the world file and then start from scratch on the rest. *As a user since the
> 1.4 days, I would never expect that much backward compatibility. *The OS
> just has to many changes to be able to do that.

Something I've done when I've really borked up my system is to just
save /etc, backup, etc, and then extract a stage3 over my root
filesystem. That gets all of my system packages into a working state.
Sure, some packages may not work, but many still will. Then an
emerge -e world or whatever will clean things up.

Sure, you'll end up with a lot of orphan cruft, but that probably
won't hurt anything. After a few months of happy operation various
orphan-finding scripts can help with cleanup.

This may not always work, but is probably easier than a full rebuild.
 
Old 01-03-2011, 05:54 AM
Enrico Weigelt
 
Default Deprecate EAPIs 1 and 2?

* Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> schrieb:

> Something I've done when I've really borked up my system is to just
> save /etc, backup, etc, and then extract a stage3 over my root
> filesystem. That gets all of my system packages into a working state.
> Sure, some packages may not work, but many still will. Then an
> emerge -e world or whatever will clean things up.

Assuming there are no circular deps which can only be resolved
by temporarily changing some useflags ... ;-o


cu
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

phone: +49 36207 519931 email: weigelt@metux.de
mobile: +49 151 27565287 icq: 210169427 skype: nekrad666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Old 01-03-2011, 11:27 AM
Jeroen Roovers
 
Default Deprecate EAPIs 1 and 2?

On Sun, 02 Jan 2011 18:02:48 +0200
Petteri Räty <betelgeuse@gentoo.org> wrote:

> It's quite likely that if you are currently on a system with Portage
> that does not understand EAPI 1 there's so many obstacles along the
> upgrade path that a clean install makes more sense. Maybe someone is
> willing to test this so that we actually know if there is an upgrade
> path from EAPI 0 available any more.

One recent example is [1] (which the reporter ended up closing as
WONTFIX himself). In that particular case, $someone could roll out newer
stages based on the current tree. I think he just gave up, which is a
bit of a pity.


jer


[1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=346621
 

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