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-   -   What the hell is going on here? (http://www.linux-archive.org/gentoo-development/428242-what-hell-going-here.html)

Angelo Arrifano 09-17-2010 10:41 AM

What the hell is going on here?
 
Every single QA commit review coming into my Inbox during the past week
was directed to arfrever. I *know* he is on probation, I *know* he made
mistakes - in fact every one makes mistakes. But you guys are hammering
all over him for picky stuff.

Remind you that while it is a pleasure to be member of Gentoo, we are
not your slaves; we chose to spend our free time contributing to Gentoo
for several reasons - fun, knowledge and team work. Satisfying somebody
else's flavors and wishes is certainly *not* one of them.

I never had the chance to talk with arfrever, nor I ever looked to his
work at Gentoo. But there is one thing I definitely got right, he has a
lot of motivation to continue in Gentoo and *offer* his time and
knowledge, otherwise he would just raise the middle finger and go away
after all of this bashing.

Best regards,
--
Angelo Arrifano AKA MiKNiX
Gentoo Embedded developer
GPE maintainer
http://www.gentoo.org/~miknix
http://miknix.homelinux.com

Maciej Mrozowski 09-17-2010 10:51 AM

What the hell is going on here?
 
On Friday 17 of September 2010 12:41:51 Angelo Arrifano wrote:
> Every single QA commit review coming into my Inbox during the past week
> was directed to arfrever. I *know* he is on probation, I *know* he made
> mistakes - in fact every one makes mistakes. But you guys are hammering
> all over him for picky stuff.
>
> Remind you that while it is a pleasure to be member of Gentoo, we are
> not your slaves; we chose to spend our free time contributing to Gentoo
> for several reasons - fun, knowledge and team work. Satisfying somebody
> else's flavors and wishes is certainly *not* one of them.
>
> I never had the chance to talk with arfrever, nor I ever looked to his
> work at Gentoo. But there is one thing I definitely got right, he has a
> lot of motivation to continue in Gentoo and *offer* his time and
> knowledge, otherwise he would just raise the middle finger and go away
> after all of this bashing.

The other important thing is such "lecturing" should probably take place in
private, like gentoo-core.

--
regards
MM

Markos Chandras 09-17-2010 02:52 PM

What the hell is going on here?
 
On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 12:51:52PM +0200, Maciej Mrozowski wrote:
> On Friday 17 of September 2010 12:41:51 Angelo Arrifano wrote:
> > Every single QA commit review coming into my Inbox during the past week
> > was directed to arfrever. I *know* he is on probation, I *know* he made
> > mistakes - in fact every one makes mistakes. But you guys are hammering
> > all over him for picky stuff.
> >
> > Remind you that while it is a pleasure to be member of Gentoo, we are
> > not your slaves; we chose to spend our free time contributing to Gentoo
> > for several reasons - fun, knowledge and team work. Satisfying somebody
> > else's flavors and wishes is certainly *not* one of them.
> >
> > I never had the chance to talk with arfrever, nor I ever looked to his
> > work at Gentoo. But there is one thing I definitely got right, he has a
> > lot of motivation to continue in Gentoo and *offer* his time and
> > knowledge, otherwise he would just raise the middle finger and go away
> > after all of this bashing.
>
> The other important thing is such "lecturing" should probably take place in
> private, like gentoo-core.
>
> --
> regards
> MM

Well, Angelo is quite right for posting in this ML because QA members
wants anything to be publicly visible. Angelo, I do agree with you. It
seems like everyone is forcing himself to find mistakes on Arfrevers
commits even the slightest one. Whilst I do agree that pointing the
mistakes is a good thing, however I am totally against targeting one
person just to satisfy our ego. So I you spot a commit mistake and
report it via the ML make sure you do it again when someone != Arfrever
do it in the future.

Bye

--
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org
Key ID: 441AC410
Key FP: AAD0 8591 E3CD 445D 6411 3477 F7F7 1E8E 441A C410

Alex Alexander 09-17-2010 03:33 PM

What the hell is going on here?
 
On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 03:52:03PM +0100, Markos Chandras wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 12:51:52PM +0200, Maciej Mrozowski wrote:
> > On Friday 17 of September 2010 12:41:51 Angelo Arrifano wrote:
> > > Every single QA commit review coming into my Inbox during the past week
> > > was directed to arfrever. I *know* he is on probation, I *know* he made
> > > mistakes - in fact every one makes mistakes. But you guys are hammering
> > > all over him for picky stuff.
> > >
> > > Remind you that while it is a pleasure to be member of Gentoo, we are
> > > not your slaves; we chose to spend our free time contributing to Gentoo
> > > for several reasons - fun, knowledge and team work. Satisfying somebody
> > > else's flavors and wishes is certainly *not* one of them.
> > >
> > > I never had the chance to talk with arfrever, nor I ever looked to his
> > > work at Gentoo. But there is one thing I definitely got right, he has a
> > > lot of motivation to continue in Gentoo and *offer* his time and
> > > knowledge, otherwise he would just raise the middle finger and go away
> > > after all of this bashing.
> >
> > The other important thing is such "lecturing" should probably take place in
> > private, like gentoo-core.
> >
> > --
> > regards
> > MM
>
> Well, Angelo is quite right for posting in this ML because QA members
> wants anything to be publicly visible. Angelo, I do agree with you. It
> seems like everyone is forcing himself to find mistakes on Arfrevers
> commits even the slightest one. Whilst I do agree that pointing the
> mistakes is a good thing, however I am totally against targeting one
> person just to satisfy our ego. So I you spot a commit mistake and
> report it via the ML make sure you do it again when someone != Arfrever
> do it in the future.
>
> Bye
>
> --
> Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
> Gentoo Linux Developer
> Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org
> Key ID: 441AC410
> Key FP: AAD0 8591 E3CD 445D 6411 3477 F7F7 1E8E 441A C410

I don't think ego has anything to do with this. Arfrever brought this on
himself. His [multiple] past mistakes and lack of cooperation are
forcing the other devs to screen all his commits now, to make sure
history doesn't repeat itself.

Angelo, while I agree with your general thoughts on why everyone is
contributing, I believe you should have gathered more intel before
sending an email like this. We do respect Arfrever's motivation, we just
need to make sure it translates to good, trustworthy work. If we didn't,
his request to return to Gentoo would have been denied.

Regards,
--
Alex Alexander | wired
Gentoo Linux Developer | Council / Qt / Chromium / more
www.linuxized.com

Theo Chatzimichos 09-17-2010 03:38 PM

What the hell is going on here?
 
On Friday 17 September 2010 18:33:01 Alex Alexander wrote:
> I don't think ego has anything to do with this. Arfrever brought this on
> himself. His [multiple] past mistakes and lack of cooperation are
> forcing the other devs to screen all his commits now, to make sure
> history doesn't repeat itself.

I object here, I asked Arfrever's help (either with python or python ebuilds)
and every time I got some great feedback.

> Angelo, while I agree with your general thoughts on why everyone is
> contributing, I believe you should have gathered more intel before
> sending an email like this. We do respect Arfrever's motivation, we just
> need to make sure it translates to good, trustworthy work. If we didn't,
> his request to return to Gentoo would have been denied.

and I don't agree with this part, no need to say anything more than the
previous guys said.

> Regards,

--
Theo Chatzimichos (tampakrap)
Gentoo KDE/Qt, Planet, Overlays

Maciej Mrozowski 09-17-2010 03:51 PM

What the hell is going on here?
 
On Friday 17 of September 2010 16:52:03 Markos Chandras wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 12:51:52PM +0200, Maciej Mrozowski wrote:
> > On Friday 17 of September 2010 12:41:51 Angelo Arrifano wrote:
> > > Every single QA commit review coming into my Inbox during the past week
> > > was directed to arfrever. I *know* he is on probation, I *know* he made
> > > mistakes - in fact every one makes mistakes. But you guys are hammering
> > > all over him for picky stuff.
> > >
> > > Remind you that while it is a pleasure to be member of Gentoo, we are
> > > not your slaves; we chose to spend our free time contributing to Gentoo
> > > for several reasons - fun, knowledge and team work. Satisfying somebody
> > > else's flavors and wishes is certainly *not* one of them.
> > >
> > > I never had the chance to talk with arfrever, nor I ever looked to his
> > > work at Gentoo. But there is one thing I definitely got right, he has a
> > > lot of motivation to continue in Gentoo and *offer* his time and
> > > knowledge, otherwise he would just raise the middle finger and go away
> > > after all of this bashing.
> >
> > The other important thing is such "lecturing" should probably take place
> > in private, like gentoo-core.
>
> Well, Angelo is quite right for posting in this ML because QA members
> wants anything to be publicly visible.

No, I mean, "lecturing" Arfrever should take place in private...

--
regards
MM

Thomas Sachau 09-17-2010 04:04 PM

What the hell is going on here?
 
Am 17.09.2010 17:38, schrieb Theo Chatzimichos:
> On Friday 17 September 2010 18:33:01 Alex Alexander wrote:
>> I don't think ego has anything to do with this. Arfrever brought this on
>> himself. His [multiple] past mistakes and lack of cooperation are
>> forcing the other devs to screen all his commits now, to make sure
>> history doesn't repeat itself.
>
> I object here, I asked Arfrever's help (either with python or python ebuilds)
> and every time I got some great feedback.

I hope, you dont require every dev to have made bad experience with something or someone, before a
change is requested. ;-)

Anyway, we should not go too much into detail, Arfrever did make some mistakes in the past and
because of this, some people do look at his actions very closely, so it wont happen again.

I hope, you can accept that. Otherwise, i suggest to move this to a more private channel like pm or
private mail since it is not planned to place all details onto public mailing lists. ;-)

--
Thomas Sachau

Gentoo Linux Developer

Angelo Arrifano 09-17-2010 04:04 PM

What the hell is going on here?
 
On 17-09-2010 17:33, Alex Alexander wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 03:52:03PM +0100, Markos Chandras wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 12:51:52PM +0200, Maciej Mrozowski wrote:
>>> On Friday 17 of September 2010 12:41:51 Angelo Arrifano wrote:
>>>> Every single QA commit review coming into my Inbox during the past week
>>>> was directed to arfrever. I *know* he is on probation, I *know* he made
>>>> mistakes - in fact every one makes mistakes. But you guys are hammering
>>>> all over him for picky stuff.
>>>>
>>>> Remind you that while it is a pleasure to be member of Gentoo, we are
>>>> not your slaves; we chose to spend our free time contributing to Gentoo
>>>> for several reasons - fun, knowledge and team work. Satisfying somebody
>>>> else's flavors and wishes is certainly *not* one of them.
>>>>
>>>> I never had the chance to talk with arfrever, nor I ever looked to his
>>>> work at Gentoo. But there is one thing I definitely got right, he has a
>>>> lot of motivation to continue in Gentoo and *offer* his time and
>>>> knowledge, otherwise he would just raise the middle finger and go away
>>>> after all of this bashing.
>>>
>>> The other important thing is such "lecturing" should probably take place in
>>> private, like gentoo-core.
>>>
>>> --
>>> regards
>>> MM
>>
>> Well, Angelo is quite right for posting in this ML because QA members
>> wants anything to be publicly visible. Angelo, I do agree with you. It
>> seems like everyone is forcing himself to find mistakes on Arfrevers
>> commits even the slightest one. Whilst I do agree that pointing the
>> mistakes is a good thing, however I am totally against targeting one
>> person just to satisfy our ego. So I you spot a commit mistake and
>> report it via the ML make sure you do it again when someone != Arfrever
>> do it in the future.
>>
>> Bye
>>
>> --
>> Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
>> Gentoo Linux Developer
>> Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org
>> Key ID: 441AC410
>> Key FP: AAD0 8591 E3CD 445D 6411 3477 F7F7 1E8E 441A C410
>
> I don't think ego has anything to do with this. Arfrever brought this on
> himself. His [multiple] past mistakes and lack of cooperation are
> forcing the other devs to screen all his commits now, to make sure
> history doesn't repeat itself.

«forcing other devs to screen all his commits now» - like torture and
pay-back?

That's exactly what I feel it is entirely wrong. It just makes Gentoo
look bad.

Anyway, I think QA should keep their commit acceptability threshold in
the same level for everyone. Of course this is easier to say than to do,
we are humans after all, and feelings are always involved.
Usually, personal interference is avoided by making the review process
blind. That is, the person that commits would remain anonymous during
the QA review process, but this is hard to apply in practice.

Regards,
- Angelo
>
> Angelo, while I agree with your general thoughts on why everyone is
> contributing, I believe you should have gathered more intel before
> sending an email like this. We do respect Arfrever's motivation, we just
> need to make sure it translates to good, trustworthy work. If we didn't,
> his request to return to Gentoo would have been denied.
>
> Regards,

Alex Alexander 09-17-2010 04:11 PM

What the hell is going on here?
 
On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 06:38:48PM +0300, Theo Chatzimichos wrote:
> On Friday 17 September 2010 18:33:01 Alex Alexander wrote:
> > I don't think ego has anything to do with this. Arfrever brought this on
> > himself. His [multiple] past mistakes and lack of cooperation are
> > forcing the other devs to screen all his commits now, to make sure
> > history doesn't repeat itself.
>
> I object here, I asked Arfrever's help (either with python or python ebuilds)
> and every time I got some great feedback.

Thats great! I never claimed he wasn't *helpful*. Accepting critisism
and suggestions from fellow devs is something completely different.

> > Angelo, while I agree with your general thoughts on why everyone is
> > contributing, I believe you should have gathered more intel before
> > sending an email like this. We do respect Arfrever's motivation, we just
> > need to make sure it translates to good, trustworthy work. If we didn't,
> > his request to return to Gentoo would have been denied.
>
> and I don't agree with this part, no need to say anything more than the
> previous guys said.

Why? Do you feel we don't respect his motivation? Do you believe his
commits don't require screening after the recent events?

I'm sure no-one really wants to see Arfrever, or any other dev, go. Then
again, no-one wants a broken tree either, so checking everything down to
the smallest detail for a while won't hurt that much.

> > Regards,
>
> --
> Theo Chatzimichos (tampakrap)
> Gentoo KDE/Qt, Planet, Overlays

--
Alex Alexander | wired
Gentoo Linux Developer | Council / Qt / Chromium / more
www.linuxized.com

Alex Alexander 09-17-2010 04:42 PM

What the hell is going on here?
 
On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 06:04:31PM +0200, Angelo Arrifano wrote:
> «forcing other devs to screen all his commits now» - like torture and
> pay-back?
>
> That's exactly what I feel it is entirely wrong. It just makes Gentoo
> look bad.
>
> Anyway, I think QA should keep their commit acceptability threshold in
> the same level for everyone. Of course this is easier to say than to do,
> we are humans after all, and feelings are always involved.
> Usually, personal interference is avoided by making the review process
> blind. That is, the person that commits would remain anonymous during
> the QA review process, but this is hard to apply in practice.
>
> Regards,
> - Angelo

This is a matter of perspective. To you it might look like torture and
pay-back, but for the guys doing it it could be "making sure he
follows all the guidelines".

I can understand how easy it is to confuse those two if you aren't fully
informed, though.

To avoid communicating the wrong message to people outside Gentoo,
following Maciej's proposal to "lecture" Arfrever in -core would be a
good idea.

Regards,
--
Alex Alexander | wired
Gentoo Linux Developer | Council / Qt / Chromium / more
www.linuxized.com


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