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Old 06-07-2010, 06:44 PM
Jim Ramsay
 
Default app-editors/vim and USE="vim-with-x" -> Rename to USE="X"?

There is an ancient bug[1] dealing with the "vim-with-x" USE flag.

I think it makes sense to rename this flag from 'vim-with-x' to just
'X', but thought I'd raise the issue here since this USE flag has been
around since before time began.

Does anyone care?

References:
[1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/94171

--
Jim Ramsay
Gentoo Developer (rox/fluxbox/gkrellm/vim)
 
Old 06-07-2010, 06:51 PM
Tomáš Chvátal
 
Default app-editors/vim and USE="vim-with-x" -> Rename to USE="X"?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Dne 7.6.2010 20:44, Jim Ramsay napsal(a):
> There is an ancient bug[1] dealing with the "vim-with-x" USE flag.
>
> I think it makes sense to rename this flag from 'vim-with-x' to just
> 'X', but thought I'd raise the issue here since this USE flag has been
> around since before time began.
>
> Does anyone care?
>
> References:
> [1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/94171
>
I would support having it under X useflag, when i do new installs i
usually have to recompile vim because i forget to enable vim-with-x :]

Cheers

Tom
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Old 06-07-2010, 06:53 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default app-editors/vim and USE="vim-with-x" -> Rename to USE="X"?

On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 14:44:32 -0400
Jim Ramsay <lack@gentoo.org> wrote:
> There is an ancient bug[1] dealing with the "vim-with-x" USE flag.
>
> I think it makes sense to rename this flag from 'vim-with-x' to just
> 'X', but thought I'd raise the issue here since this USE flag has been
> around since before time began.

It's there because if you break your X you probably want a usable
editor to help you fix it.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 06-07-2010, 07:05 PM
 
Default app-editors/vim and USE="vim-with-x" -> Rename to USE="X"?

On Mon, Jun 07, 2010 at 07:53:22PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> It's there because if you break your X you probably want a usable
> editor to help you fix it.

vim, compiled with "vim-with-x" works correctly when X is broken. It
doesn't enable X11-based UI, like flag "X" suggests. It just enables
optional connection to x-server to use its clipboard, and vim still
works if that connection fails.

X11-based UI is in separate package, "app-editors/gvim"
 
Old 06-07-2010, 07:10 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default app-editors/vim and USE="vim-with-x" -> Rename to USE="X"?

On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 23:05:27 +0400
dev-random@mail.ru wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 07, 2010 at 07:53:22PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > It's there because if you break your X you probably want a usable
> > editor to help you fix it.
>
> vim, compiled with "vim-with-x" works correctly when X is broken. It
> doesn't enable X11-based UI, like flag "X" suggests. It just enables
> optional connection to x-server to use its clipboard, and vim still
> works if that connection fails.

It does not, however, work if your X libraries are broken.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 06-07-2010, 07:59 PM
Jim Ramsay
 
Default app-editors/vim and USE="vim-with-x" -> Rename to USE="X"?

Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 23:05:27 +0400
> dev-random@mail.ru wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 07, 2010 at 07:53:22PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > > It's there because if you break your X you probably want a usable
> > > editor to help you fix it.
> >
> > vim, compiled with "vim-with-x" works correctly when X is broken. It
> > doesn't enable X11-based UI, like flag "X" suggests. It just enables
> > optional connection to x-server to use its clipboard, and vim still
> > works if that connection fails.
>
> It does not, however, work if your X libraries are broken.

I certainly agree with you that removing the linkage to a handful of X
libraries makes vim more robust if those particular libraries fail.

However even with USE="-vim-with-x", there are a number of other
libraries that, if broken, will still render vim useless, such as
ncurses, perl, python, and ruby.

I suspect if one really wants a fail-proof editor, one would either
be building vim with USE="minimal" which will ignore the 'vim-with-x'
or 'X' USE flag (regardless of what we call it) and also ignore any
perl/python/ruby libraries, or one would want something more
trim, like busybox vi. Or even better yet, busybox vi with USE="static".

Of course changing the USE flag name to 'X' would still let users
decide to *not* link their app-editors/vim against any X libraries via
per-package USE flags. The main difference in changing the name from
'vim-with-x' to 'X' is that instead of enforcing a default behaviour of
"Vim will not link against X unless explicitly told to do so", we will
be enforcing a policy of "Vim will link against X when USE='X'".

I suppose this is a bit like a transition from an opt-in policy to an
opt-out policy, with the caveat that by enabling USE=X globally, a user
has already declared their intent: opt-in to linking against X
in all packages where there is a choice to do so.

--
Jim Ramsay
Gentoo Developer (rox/fluxbox/gkrellm/vim)
 
Old 06-07-2010, 08:38 PM
Duncan
 
Default app-editors/vim and USE="vim-with-x" -> Rename to USE="X"?

Ciaran McCreesh posted on Mon, 07 Jun 2010 19:53:22 +0100 as excerpted:

> On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 14:44:32 -0400
> Jim Ramsay <lack@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> There is an ancient bug[1] dealing with the "vim-with-x" USE flag.
>>
>> I think it makes sense to rename this flag from 'vim-with-x' to just
>> 'X', but thought I'd raise the issue here since this USE flag has been
>> around since before time began.
>
> It's there because if you break your X you probably want a usable editor
> to help you fix it.

That's a good point, but it would be much like links, with the X (and
several others, jpeg, png, tiff, etc) USE flags. Many people use it
primarily or exclusively as a console browser and don't want it broken if
those libraries are, despite the fact that they use X (and the image
libraries) by default, and thus have those USE flags enabled by default.

IOW. that's what package.use is for (with portage, anyway, no idea what
the alternative PMs use, but portage is the default, anyway). There are
packages where one doesn't want the global flags enabled, and there are
mechanisms in place for just that USE (heh!) case. Use 'em for what
they're designed for! =:^)

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
 
Old 06-08-2010, 05:29 PM
Michał Górny
 
Default app-editors/vim and USE="vim-with-x" -> Rename to USE="X"?

On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 19:53:22 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 14:44:32 -0400
> Jim Ramsay <lack@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > There is an ancient bug[1] dealing with the "vim-with-x" USE flag.
> >
> > I think it makes sense to rename this flag from 'vim-with-x' to just
> > 'X', but thought I'd raise the issue here since this USE flag has
> > been around since before time began.
>
> It's there because if you break your X you probably want a usable
> editor to help you fix it.

As Duncan already mentioned, vim is not the only 'primarily console'
application which can link against X libraries. Thus, if we really have
to use another flag than 'X' (which idea I personally dislike), then I
think it would be better to choose some more common name.

Additionally, as Jim mentioned, there's still a lot of other libraries
which could make vim useless. Thus, I think the best solution would be
to encourage upstream (or even provide a patch if they like the idea)
to support dynamic runtime linking with all optional libraries in vim.

Thanks to that, vim would be able to run fine with totally broken
libraries. If it would fail to 'load' them, it would just disable
particular features. Additionally, user should be able then to
explicitly disable loading particular libraries if they would cause
segfaults or other problems afterwards.

--
Best regards,
Michał Górny

<http://mgorny.alt.pl>
<xmpp:mgorny@jabber.ru>
 
Old 06-08-2010, 08:30 PM
Mike Frysinger
 
Default app-editors/vim and USE="vim-with-x" -> Rename to USE="X"?

On Monday, June 07, 2010 14:44:32 Jim Ramsay wrote:
> There is an ancient bug[1] dealing with the "vim-with-x" USE flag.
>
> I think it makes sense to rename this flag from 'vim-with-x' to just
> 'X', but thought I'd raise the issue here since this USE flag has been
> around since before time began.
>
> Does anyone care?

people want it and i havent seen any compelling reason to avoid it anymore, so
let's rock

for the really conservative people who fear a completely trashed system,
they're probably forgetting about the static busybox that is on everyone's
system. `busybox vi` gives you a "never gonna let you down" safety net.
-mike
 
Old 06-09-2010, 09:27 PM
Jim Ramsay
 
Default app-editors/vim and USE="vim-with-x" -> Rename to USE="X"?

Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote:
> people want it and i havent seen any compelling reason to avoid it
> anymore, so let's rock

For the record: It is now rocked.

--
Jim Ramsay
Gentoo Developer (rox/fluxbox/gkrellm/vim)
 

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