FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Gentoo > Gentoo Development

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 04-07-2010, 09:05 AM
Ulrich Mueller
 
Default Council meeting 19 April 2010

Next monthly council meeting will be at 19 April 2010, 18:00 UTC
in #gentoo-council.

If you have any topics you want us to discuss or even vote about,
simply followup to this message.

Ulrich
 
Old 04-07-2010, 02:23 PM
Ben de Groot
 
Default Council meeting 19 April 2010

On 7 April 2010 11:05, Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Next monthly council meeting will be at 19 April 2010, 18:00 UTC
> in #gentoo-council.
>
> If you have any topics you want us to discuss or even vote about,
> simply followup to this message.

1. reconsider metadata changepolicies proposal
==============================================

The fact is there is a spectrum from ebuild maintainers' side about
how desirable it is for non-maintainers to step in, ranging from
"don't touch this ever" to "please do touch this". There may be very
valid reasons for this (in some cases intimate knowledge of the
package may be required, for example, or on the opposite side someone
might not have the time or motivation to do much about that specific
package) that have little to do with territoriality. While there is a
need for basic policies to be made more explicit, it is also obvious
that there is no good "one policy fits all" approach. The metadata
changepolicies proposal beautifully captured this spectrum and has
wide support from developers. While this information isn't directly
useful to users, the argument that it "would bloat the file for no
good reason" is false, because there are very good reasons: to
facilitate cooperation between devs as well as a better overall
quality of the tree. This benefits users, so I'm quite sure they don't
mind we use metadata.xml for that. Can council please decide to honor
the wish from developers to implement this?


2. website redesign
===================

This is a recurring theme in discussions about Gentoo's shortcomings.
While there have been some minor improvements in recent years, the
resign project itself failed miserably, but is still as needed as
ever. We should have one elegant design that will be consistently
applied to all official Gentoo websites. A look at znurt.org should
convince anyone of what can be done. Also our frontpage needs to be
more focussed on communicating the things users and new visitors are
looking for. Can council assure that a team will be assembled that can
effectively tackle this issue?


3. manpower and recruitment issues
==================================

Another recurring theme is the lack of manpower in certain areas, the
recruitment bottleneck and the quizzes. There are some initiatives but
more decisive leadership is needed. Can council decide to actively
pursue solutions for these structural problems?


4. devrel ineffectiveness
=========================

What can be done to assure that conflicts are addressed in a timely
and effective manner by DevRel? What can be done to remove poisonous
people from Gentoo and its communication channels more decisively and
effectively? The fact that many people indicate they do not want to
become a developer for this exact reason, should be cause for concern.
Can council make a statement that they share these concerns and are
actively looking to address them?


5. centralize developer documentation
=====================================

Currently the documentation a developer needs to effectively write
ebuilds and maintain packages is scattered all over the place. We have
the (incomplete) devmanual, the developer handbook, various guides and
policies in individual projects, the GLEPs, council decisions, and a
legacy of unwritten rules or poorly documented policies. It would be
very helpful to centralize all that information, and work on properly
documenting our policies. At the very least there should be one page
that funtions as a portal to all existing relevant information. Even
better would be to have as much of that relevant information as
possible consolidated into one place, so that everyone knows where to
go to look that up. Can council decide to see this implemented?

Thanks,
--
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead
 
Old 04-07-2010, 03:00 PM
Denis Dupeyron
 
Default Council meeting 19 April 2010

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 8:23 AM, Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 1. reconsider metadata changepolicies proposal
> ==============================================
[...]
> Can council please decide to honor
> the wish from developers to implement this?

The council will be glad to vote on a GLEP when ready. From GLEP 1,
GLEPs are the "primary mechanisms for proposing significant new
features, for collecting community input on an issue, and for
documenting the design decisions". So use them.

Also, you might want to check the log and summary of the last meeting
to find out why the council may end up voting no to such a GLEP.

> 2. website redesign
> ===================
[...]
> Can council assure that a team will be assembled that can
> effectively tackle this issue?

You want the council to aim their collective gun at volunteer
developers and force them to assemble in a team and work on something
they might not want to work on?

In other words, if you want it then work on it and make it happen.
This is and has always been the Gentoo way.

> 3. manpower and recruitment issues
> ==================================
>
> Another recurring theme is the lack of manpower in certain areas, the
> recruitment bottleneck and the quizzes. There are some initiatives but
> more decisive leadership is needed. Can council decide to actively
> pursue solutions for these structural problems?

The only way to solve this is to address these issues where they are.
That means joining the recruiters team and helping them with that.
Another thing you might want to do is properly mentor recruits.
Because one reason recruiting takes so long, and thus why there is a
backlog, is (to put is simply) that mentors suck at mentoring.

> 4. devrel ineffectiveness
> =========================

In case you haven't noticed there was a recent change of devrel lead.
This means it is urgent to wait for the results of the change. Because
you never know, it might just be that the change of lead was intended
to solve such things at a perceived devrel ineffectiveness.

> 5. centralize developer documentation
> =====================================

This is an interesting idea which I believe I have seen discussed on
irc at some point. Feel free to work on a GLEP to address that.

Before we go any further, let me make the following PA announcement:

1 - If you want to improve a project or subproject the best (and
often only) thing to do is to join it.

2 - The council isn't a super-nanny metaproject with enough magical
powers to solve each and every of your oh-so-annoying problems. We do
have magic wands but you don't want to see them.

Denis.
 
Old 04-07-2010, 05:14 PM
Ben de Groot
 
Default Council meeting 19 April 2010

On 7 April 2010 17:00, Denis Dupeyron <calchan@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Before we go any further, let me make the following PA announcement:
>
> *1 - If you want to improve a project or subproject the best (and
> often only) thing to do is to join it.
>
> *2 - The council isn't a super-nanny metaproject with enough magical
> powers to solve each and every of your oh-so-annoying problems. We do
> have magic wands but you don't want to see them.


Gentoo Council project page <http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/>:

"1. Project Description
The elected Gentoo Council decides on global issues and policies that
affect multiple projects in Gentoo."

GLEP 39 also says "Global issues will be decided by an elected Gentoo council."

So all I'm asking is to do your job and make decisions on issues that
affect all of Gentoo. The issues I brought up are wider than a single
individual project.

Thanks,
--
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead
 
Old 04-07-2010, 06:05 PM
Denis Dupeyron
 
Default Council meeting 19 April 2010

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
> So all I'm asking is to do your job and make decisions on issues that
> affect all of Gentoo. The issues I brought up are wider than a single
> individual project.

And almost 100% of the time this needs to run through a GLEP, which is
the case here. Then the council will do all the things you've pasted
from GLEP 39.

Denis.
 
Old 04-07-2010, 06:22 PM
Ben de Groot
 
Default Council meeting 19 April 2010

On 7 April 2010 20:05, Denis Dupeyron <calchan@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> So all I'm asking is to do your job and make decisions on issues that
>> affect all of Gentoo. The issues I brought up are wider than a single
>> individual project.
>
> And almost 100% of the time this needs to run through a GLEP

Where is that policy documented?

--
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead
 
Old 04-07-2010, 09:02 PM
Arun Raghavan
 
Default Council meeting 19 April 2010

Hi Ben,

On 7 April 2010 22:44, Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
[...]
> "1. *Project Description
> The elected Gentoo Council decides on global issues and policies that
> affect multiple projects in Gentoo."
>
> GLEP 39 also says "Global issues will be decided by an elected Gentoo council."
>
> So all I'm asking is to do your job and make decisions on issues that
> affect all of Gentoo. The issues I brought up are wider than a single
> individual project.

I don't understand what you expect the council to do in some of these
cases. Taking the website redesign or consolidation of documentation
as examples, do you want them to:

a) Decide that this should be done?
b) Call for volunteers? (they obviously cannot force anyone to do it)
c) Do it themselves?
d) What you probably mean that I fail to see

Regards,
--
Arun Raghavan
http://arunraghavan.net/
(Ford_Prefect | Gentoo) & (arunsr | GNOME)
 
Old 04-07-2010, 09:45 PM
Ben de Groot
 
Default Council meeting 19 April 2010

On 7 April 2010 23:02, Arun Raghavan <ford_prefect@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I don't understand what you expect the council to do in some of these
> cases. Taking the website redesign or consolidation of documentation
> as examples, do you want them to:
>
> a) Decide that this should be done?
> b) Call for volunteers? (they obviously cannot force anyone to do it)
> c) Do it themselves?
> d) What you probably mean that I fail to see

Mostly, I want them to show leadership. I want the council to affirm
that these are important goals, to raise awareness of where our weak
areas are, and what needs to be done to improve things. And yes, I
want the council to call for volunteers, and where necessary to
recruit people who are able to help.

--
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead
 
Old 04-07-2010, 10:30 PM
Richard Freeman
 
Default Council meeting 19 April 2010

On 04/07/2010 11:00 AM, Denis Dupeyron wrote:

5. centralize developer documentation
=====================================


This is an interesting idea which I believe I have seen discussed on
irc at some point. Feel free to work on a GLEP to address that.



To be honest, this doesn't even need a GLEP so much as a website or
something. If somebody consolidated all this stuff into a reasonable
format, I bet that half the devs would pitch in and make their
contributions. The only thing that might warrant a GLEP is a policy
decision that all development policies must be documented or linked from
that site to be binding, or something like that.


I don't think that for the council to make a policy decision that there
needs to be a GLEP. Sure, it is the best way to make big changes, or
changes that require some level of formality. However, the council can
still show leadership in affirming their agreement on issues even if it
isn't a formal affair. I'm sure every other town government in the
Western World has taken a vote in support of their troops or something
like that without going through the official lawmaking process and all
that - it is just a gesture.


I don't have the time to create such a website although I would agree
that it is sorely needed. Hence, I will try to be careful in throwing
around criticism - it is much easier to bring problems to the table than
solutions...


Rich
 
Old 04-08-2010, 01:27 AM
Denis Dupeyron
 
Default Council meeting 19 April 2010

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Richard Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Sure, it is the best way to make big changes

Why then use anything else than the best tool when you can use the
best tool? I didn't say that he should work on a GLEP though, but that
he should "feel free" to do so, which is different. That meant that if
he thought there was a point to it, was willing to do it, etc...

Just a note about this. The council could for example make the
decision to centralize all the documentation in a wiki, force the doc
team to use tools they haven't chosen or even take that responsibility
out of their hands. Basically step on their toes. Nice way to show
respect for all the hard work they've done for years. Or this could be
discussed on the relevant mailing-list(s) by everybody who feels
concerned, input from the whole community (including the doc team)
could be gathered, council members could chime in (I usually do),
dissenting opinions could be documented, a consensus could be reached
and then design decisions could be documented. See GLEP 1 for more
information on that work flow.

Gentoo has been driven by consensus since Daniel left, for better or
for worse. You might not like this way to work, but that's OK. I
didn't say I thought it was optimal either. All I know is I'm going by
the book, but it allows me to rewrite some pages when I don't like
them. The good news is that during the last meeting the council has
decided to initiate an overhaul of GLEP 39. I'm still gathering
material from various sources to start the discussions open to all
users and developers. At that point you'll have the opportunity to
suggest anything you think may improve the way the council works.

> However, the council can
> still show leadership in affirming their agreement on issues even if it
> isn't a formal affair.

We don't need a meeting for that. We can show leadership on the
mailing-lists everyday. What do you think I'm doing right now for
example? And by the way I don't believe that issuing a statement along
the lines of "Yep, we agree" shows any leadership at all.
Additionally, leadership is not about doing your job. You may want to
peruse the council meeting logs and summaries for examples of
leadership, and vote for real leaders next time if you think we suck.

> I'm sure every other town government in the Western
> World has taken a vote in support of their troops or something like that
> without going through the official lawmaking process and all that - it is
> just a gesture.

We've been down that road many times before, but let me say it again:
Gentoo is not a government, so any comparison to one is pointless.

> I don't have the time to create such a website although I would agree that
> it is sorely needed. *Hence, I will try to be careful in throwing around
> criticism - it is much easier to bring problems to the table than
> solutions...

Wise words, although constructive criticism is always welcome. In
order to be really constructive however, criticism needs among other
things to take into account goals, resources, history and rules.

Denis.
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 08:42 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org