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Old 04-03-2010, 09:46 AM
Patrick Lauer
 
Default Is Gentoo a Phoenix?

On 04/03/10 11:16, Tobias Scherbaum wrote:
> Hell no, but ...
>
> We have lots of quite understaffed areas, to sum up in a positive way.
> Summing it up the negative way one might say, we have lots of areas were
> users might get the idea Gentoo already is dead.

So what are _you_ doing to make it better?

> For example:
> - hardened-sources are nowadays only available in an experimental
> overlay, lots of users keep asking what's happening to the
> hardened-sources on both the -dev but also the -hardened mailinglist.
> Yeah, we do have people working on hardened stuff, but if people just
> take what's happening in the portage tree they might think that the
> hardened stuff they're relying on for their business isn't supported any
> longer.
With Zorry we just got a new recruit for working on hardened things,
especially toolchain. It's not as dead as you make it sound ...


> - Our formerly outstanding documentation still is somewhat maintained,
> but that's it. I haven't seen any new additions (both to our docs, but
> also to our docs-team) for years. People are constantly asking for a
> documentation wiki, but ...
yeah, as long as no one just creates a wiki there won't be one. People
are waiting on other people, who are waiting for Godot. Just do it.

I remember the long and whiny road to get a blog aggregator - what
killed the waiting deadlock was simply karltk setting up one (unofficial
etc.etc.) and suddenly people saw that it was good.

> - Understaffed herds: For example net-mail, netmon and others - were
> missing lots of developers and their support in lots of areas. Sadly
> those areas are mostly those ones, one might need packages for their
> business servers from.
And still, when someone tries to fix things in such an understaffed herd
people go all territorial and are like "omg u touched my package".
Right now I'm quite confused what our project strategy seems to be, as
far as I can tell there's one group aiming for an aesthetical optimum
and the other group just wants to get things fixed. And they are not
cooperating well ...

> So - what to do now?
For me it's simple. I try to
- dedicate time to fixing things. Takes lots of time, can be demotivating
- try to motivate and recruit new users - hard to motivate them, and
with our current recruiting setup it's hard to keep them motivated
- not get demotivated by the "OMG it's all bad" attitude some people radiate

And don't just start discussing how to discuss things. That's not going
to work. You'll end up with a pretty specific plan how to discuss the
whole thing, then get bored and not discuss it at all.

Just start fixing things. Set yourself some personal goals (do on
average one commit a day? fix one bug a day?) and try to reach them. If
you do, set yourself some new goals.

I have found some pretty amazing proxy-maintainers in the last weeks,
there's quite a lot of progress happening. There's still lots of
potential, but most people only start interacting with us once we have
started to show some activity.

Right now we might be in a not-that-excellent position, but it won't
just go away. It needs all of us to _do_ something.

wkr,

Patrick
 
Old 04-03-2010, 10:19 AM
Tobias Scherbaum
 
Default Is Gentoo a Phoenix?

Am Samstag, den 03.04.2010, 11:46 +0200 schrieb Patrick Lauer:
> > We have lots of quite understaffed areas, to sum up in a positive way.
> > Summing it up the negative way one might say, we have lots of areas were
> > users might get the idea Gentoo already is dead.
>
> So what are _you_ doing to make it better?

I started to maintain those "unmaintained" packages which are important
to me myself and ended up in the net-mail/netmon herds for example.
Postfix, Cyrus-Imap, Bind, Nagios and several others are packages i put
my hands on - just because noone else did and those were and still are
essential to me.

> > - hardened-sources are nowadays only available in an experimental
> > overlay, lots of users keep asking what's happening to the
> > hardened-sources on both the -dev but also the -hardened mailinglist.
> > Yeah, we do have people working on hardened stuff, but if people just
> > take what's happening in the portage tree they might think that the
> > hardened stuff they're relying on for their business isn't supported any
> > longer.
> With Zorry we just got a new recruit for working on hardened things,
> especially toolchain. It's not as dead as you make it sound ...

Good to see there's something happening in hardened - but still, the
user outside of Gentoo still only is seeing: "Oh, no hardened-sources
update for nearly a year."

> > - Understaffed herds: For example net-mail, netmon and others - were
> > missing lots of developers and their support in lots of areas. Sadly
> > those areas are mostly those ones, one might need packages for their
> > business servers from.
> And still, when someone tries to fix things in such an understaffed herd
> people go all territorial and are like "omg u touched my package".
> Right now I'm quite confused what our project strategy seems to be, as
> far as I can tell there's one group aiming for an aesthetical optimum
> and the other group just wants to get things fixed. And they are not
> cooperating well ...

I for one can't say I had any territorial problems when touching
packages belonging to other devs or herds - it's just a problem if you
screw up.

- Tobias

--
Praxisbuch Nagios
http://www.oreilly.de/catalog/pbnagiosger/

https://www.xing.com/profile/Tobias_Scherbaum
 
Old 04-03-2010, 11:33 AM
Richard Freeman
 
Default Is Gentoo a Phoenix?

On 04/03/2010 06:19 AM, Tobias Scherbaum wrote:

And still, when someone tries to fix things in such an understaffed herd
people go all territorial and are like "omg u touched my package".
Right now I'm quite confused what our project strategy seems to be, as
far as I can tell there's one group aiming for an aesthetical optimum
and the other group just wants to get things fixed. And they are not
cooperating well ...


I for one can't say I had any territorial problems when touching
packages belonging to other devs or herds - it's just a problem if you
screw up.



Agreed - if you ping the herd in advance, and get an OK (or at least no
reply for a few days), and then you make some simple fixes to their
packages, it is very unlikely that you're going to have any complaints.


If you send the the proposed patch in advance and let them review it,
and you get no complaints, you're even more clearly in the right.


If you don't notify them at all, or you notify them and do a cvs commit
3 minutes later, or if you completely redesign their ebuilds in addition
to fixing a 1-line problem, then you're going to get complaints.


Nobody minds help. People do mind when somebody drops by to help them
for 5 minutes and they're stuck with the aftermath. We don't "own" our
packages, but existing maintainers have at least shown a long-term
commitment to them (however strong) and that should at least be respected.


On other topics in this thread:

I agree wholeheartedly that whenever possible "just do it" is a good
approach - especially when you're talking about documentation and
external websites/etc. Modifications to things that already exist are
less amenable to "just do it."


I really think that the Gentoo recruitment process needs improvement.
Right now it seems like a LOT of effort is required both to become a
Gentoo dev and to help somebody become a Gentoo dev. That means we have
great people, but not many of them.


I think the problem is that our recruitment process uses the ability to
answer complex technical and organizational questions as a way to assess
maturity. I think that maturity is far more important than technical
skill in a distro - a mature person will recognize their own limitations
and exercise due diligence when stepping outside of them. Instead of
playing 20 questions and going back and forth with recruits, maybe a
better approach would be to cut down the questions dramatically (or more
clearly put their answers in the documentation), and then use other
approaches like references and interviews. A new recruit might be given
the names of 5 devs that they will need to interview with for 30-60
minutes by phone or IRC (preference on phone), and they will need to
submit references, who will be contacted. When we hire people at work
we don't play trivial pursuit with them, we use an interview to get a
feel for what they're like and how they handle situations, and we screen
resumes and references to determine experience. I'm sure any of the
professional linux distros would work in the same way, but perhaps
somebody should ask around and see how it is done elsewhere.


So, now instead of a recruiter having to spend hours helping somebody
through quizzes without giving them answers, instead they just send them
a list of interviewers, and collate the results. Any interviewer will
just need to spend 30 minutes on an interview and 10 minutes on a
writeup. Plus, the whole process will make Gentoo a bit more human.


Rich
 
Old 04-03-2010, 11:50 AM
Petteri Räty
 
Default Is Gentoo a Phoenix?

On 04/03/2010 02:33 PM, Richard Freeman wrote:

>
> I think the problem is that our recruitment process uses the ability to
> answer complex technical and organizational questions as a way to assess
> maturity. I think that maturity is far more important than technical
> skill in a distro - a mature person will recognize their own limitations
> and exercise due diligence when stepping outside of them. Instead of
> playing 20 questions and going back and forth with recruits, maybe a
> better approach would be to cut down the questions dramatically (or more
> clearly put their answers in the documentation), and then use other
> approaches like references and interviews. A new recruit might be given
> the names of 5 devs that they will need to interview with for 30-60
> minutes by phone or IRC (preference on phone), and they will need to
> submit references, who will be contacted. When we hire people at work
> we don't play trivial pursuit with them, we use an interview to get a
> feel for what they're like and how they handle situations, and we screen
> resumes and references to determine experience. I'm sure any of the
> professional linux distros would work in the same way, but perhaps
> somebody should ask around and see how it is done elsewhere.
>

The sessions also teach them a lot. I regularly get feedback that people
learned a lot during the sessions. Reading a lot of technical
documentation doesn't motivate many but the reviews do.

Regards,
Petteri
 
Old 04-03-2010, 12:18 PM
Ben de Groot
 
Default Is Gentoo a Phoenix?

On 3 April 2010 11:46, Patrick Lauer <patrick@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 04/03/10 11:16, Tobias Scherbaum wrote:
>> Hell no, but ...
>>
>> We have lots of quite understaffed areas, to sum up in a positive way.
>> Summing it up the negative way one might say, we have lots of areas were
>> users might get the idea Gentoo already is dead.
>
> So what are _you_ doing to make it better?

I like that attitude! And I'm so going to steal your idea about the phoenix.
I'll start using the [Gentoo Phoenix] tag for discussions about how we
can make Gentoo better. Maybe we could even start a project for it,
trying to bring together ideas and people who want to improve things.
I have several things I wanted to start a discussion about already, and
it seems these things are in the air now as I see these topics popping
up left and right now. I'll fork off from this discussion into some specific
things in order to try to keep things a bit organized.


>> So - what to do now?
> For me it's simple. I try to
> - dedicate time to fixing things. Takes lots of time, can be demotivating

As I've recently refocussed my Gentoo activities on Qt, and withdrawn
from various other herds I was involved in, I now have some time and
motivation to pick up something new. I wish to dedicate this to something
that will really help and I believe these discussions are a good starting
point. I hope it will trigger others in similar ways.

Cheers,
--
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux Qt project lead developer
 
Old 04-03-2010, 12:40 PM
Magnus Granberg
 
Default Is Gentoo a Phoenix?

lördag 03 april 2010 12.19.19 skrev Tobias Scherbaum:
> > > - hardened-sources are nowadays only available in an experimental
> > > overlay, lots of users keep asking what's happening to the
> > > hardened-sources on both the -dev but also the -hardened mailinglist.
> > > Yeah, we do have people working on hardened stuff, but if people just
> > > take what's happening in the portage tree they might think that the
> > > hardened stuff they're relying on for their business isn't supported
> > > any longer.
> >
> > With Zorry we just got a new recruit for working on hardened things,
> > especially toolchain. It's not as dead as you make it sound ...
>
> Good to see there's something happening in hardened - but still, the
> user outside of Gentoo still only is seeing: "Oh, no hardened-sources
> update for nearly a year."
>
How long did it take for Hardened GCC to move to 4.X? And we are still
lacking SSP support in the tree. We have lost almost all dev's in the herd the
past years. As for hardened-sources we are working on it but that work has
not hit the tree yet and that not a good situation. It will hit the tree soner
or later. We work on our free time to and we don't have all the free time in
the world to work on it. There is a long todo list. It is very time comsuming
work on the toolchain, kernel, docs, bugs, recruit and help users at the same
time. As tree dev that do all the work but we have users and some devs that
help out too and that we are thankful for ther help. Hopefully we have
something on the hardened-sources after next meeting.

@ Paweł Hajdan, Jr. you could ask in hardened-kernel@gentoo.org what thay need
for help or join #gentoo-hardened @ freenode.net
And the hardened-sources in the hardened-development overlay have some
regreesions that we are working on to fix.
Sorry if i bing roude.

Hardened at gentoo.org
Magnus Granberg (Zorry) <zorry@gentoo.org>
 
Old 04-04-2010, 06:09 PM
Denis Dupeyron
 
Default Is Gentoo a Phoenix?

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 5:33 AM, Richard Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I think the problem is that our recruitment process uses the ability to
> answer complex technical and organizational questions as a way to assess
> maturity. *I think that maturity is far more important than technical skill
> in a distro - a mature person will recognize their own limitations and
> exercise due diligence when stepping outside of them. *Instead of playing 20
> questions and going back and forth with recruits, maybe a better approach
> would be to cut down the questions dramatically (or more clearly put their
> answers in the documentation), and then use other approaches like references
> and interviews. *A new recruit might be given the names of 5 devs that they
> will need to interview with for 30-60 minutes by phone or IRC (preference on
> phone), and they will need to submit references, who will be contacted.
> *When we hire people at work we don't play trivial pursuit with them, we use
> an interview to get a feel for what they're like and how they handle
> situations, and we screen resumes and references to determine experience.
> *I'm sure any of the professional linux distros would work in the same way,
> but perhaps somebody should ask around and see how it is done elsewhere.

All ideas regarding improving recruitment are welcome, thanks. However
if, during your review, you were not given the impression that your
maturity and other social skills were being assessed then you were
being blissfully naive. ) I use tricks like pretending I don't
understand that crystal-clear thing you're explaining to gauge your
patience and politeness, I drift off to real-life topics to find out
who the recruit really is, and lots of others like background searches
(also outside of gentoo) and talks with the mentor.

On the other hand, in your particular case, I clearly remember the
assessment was easy and thus I didn't insist too much. Which is what
probably made it more difficult for you to notice.

Denis.
 
Old 04-04-2010, 08:19 PM
Zeerak Mustafa Waseem
 
Default Is Gentoo a Phoenix?

esOn Sat, Apr 03, 2010 at 07:33:53AM -0400, Richard Freeman wrote:
> On 04/03/2010 06:19 AM, Tobias Scherbaum wrote:
>
> I really think that the Gentoo recruitment process needs improvement.
> Right now it seems like a LOT of effort is required both to become a
> Gentoo dev and to help somebody become a Gentoo dev. That means we have
> great people, but not many of them.
>
> I think the problem is that our recruitment process uses the ability to
> answer complex technical and organizational questions as a way to assess
> maturity. I think that maturity is far more important than technical
> skill in a distro - a mature person will recognize their own limitations
> and exercise due diligence when stepping outside of them. Instead of
> playing 20 questions and going back and forth with recruits, maybe a
> better approach would be to cut down the questions dramatically (or more
> clearly put their answers in the documentation), and then use other
> approaches like references and interviews. A new recruit might be given
> the names of 5 devs that they will need to interview with for 30-60
> minutes by phone or IRC (preference on phone), and they will need to
> submit references, who will be contacted. When we hire people at work
> we don't play trivial pursuit with them, we use an interview to get a
> feel for what they're like and how they handle situations, and we screen
> resumes and references to determine experience. I'm sure any of the
> professional linux distros would work in the same way, but perhaps
> somebody should ask around and see how it is done elsewhere.
>

I'm not exactly sure how you'd want the references to work, I mean, as in prior jobs/projects worked on?
I know that I'd like to help out with development, but as it stands I don't think I have the necessary skills (various programming language etc), so that is something I'm working on.
As a consequence I naturally don't have any references (and might not by the time I feel ready) but that wouldn't necessarily mean that I'm not qualified to be working as a dev. Also one could imagine that a number of other people without references, but the necessary qualifications might think "To hell with this, I'll just put my effots somewhere else".

Another thing, you write that phone is preferred but I know that I act relaxed in text with new people and as myself. Whereas on the phone I hold back a bit, and don't really act myself. So perhaps the preference should be the manner in which the one being interviewed is more comfortable with and will act more naturally.

Anyway these are just my 2 cents.

--
Zeerak Waseem
 
Old 04-05-2010, 04:24 AM
Duncan
 
Default Is Gentoo a Phoenix?

Zeerak Mustafa Waseem posted on Sun, 04 Apr 2010 22:19:06 +0200 as
excerpted:

> esOn Sat, Apr 03, 2010 at 07:33:53AM -0400, Richard Freeman wrote:

>> I really think that the Gentoo recruitment process needs improvement.
>> Right now it seems like a LOT of effort is required both to become a
>> Gentoo dev and to help somebody become a Gentoo dev. That means we
>> have great people, but not many of them.

I like that last sentence summation. It's perhaps optimistic, but does
bring into sharp focus both a positive and a negative of the current
process.

>> I think the problem is that our recruitment process uses the ability to
>> answer complex technical and organizational questions as a way to
>> assess maturity. I think that maturity is far more important than
>> technical skill in a distro - a mature person will recognize their own
>> limitations and exercise due diligence when stepping outside of them.
>> Instead of playing 20 questions and going back and forth with recruits,
>> maybe a better approach would be to cut down the questions dramatically
>> (or more clearly put their answers in the documentation), and then use
>> other approaches like references and interviews. A new recruit might
>> be given the names of 5 devs that they will need to interview with for
>> 30-60 minutes by phone or IRC (preference on phone), and they will need
>> to submit references, who will be contacted. When we hire people at
>> work we don't play trivial pursuit with them, we use an interview to
>> get a feel for what they're like and how they handle situations, and we
>> screen resumes and references to determine experience. I'm sure any of
>> the professional linux distros would work in the same way, but perhaps
>> somebody should ask around and see how it is done elsewhere.
>>
>>
> I'm not exactly sure how you'd want the references to work, I mean, as
> in prior jobs/projects worked on? I know that I'd like to help out with
> development, but as it stands I don't think I have the necessary skills
> (various programming language etc), so that is something I'm working on.

I expect rich0 had in mind (tho I won't claim to speak for him) something
a bit broader when referring to references. Certainly, in the FLOSS world
many people are self-taught to some degree or another, and many are
volunteers, so references in the traditional job sense may not be
available.

But in the FLOSS world, the term is indeed often used in a broader sense.
For instance, if I were to "apply", I'd list my long-time involvement on
the pan (Internet news client) lists, where my involvement hasn't been as
much in the technical sense but in helping out users, and ideally, in
being an interface between users and devs such that devs need spend less
time helping users and can spend more time developing. =:^)

In Gentoo, not only my record of involvement on the amd64 list and here
(I've followed the dev list, as much to get a heads-up on what's coming
before it hits as anything else, since 2004.0, before I even had Gentoo
successfully installed, as that wasn't until 2004.1), but on bugs.gentoo.

Even if those aren't particularly technical references, they absolutely
demonstrate consistency and integrity in community contribution. Those
references demonstrate integrity, in terms both of length of commitment,
and security-wise. If I'm a bad guy, I must be a pretty **** patient one!
=:^)

Others won't have that length of service to point to, but they have an IRC
handle that has come to be identified with cooperativeness and willingness
to help and to learn. Bugday participation is a very solid reference, as
is work on one of the overlays with reasonably heavy community
involvement, be it a specialized one like the java or kde overlays, or a
couple of ebuilds on sunrise. There's also the forums, with their very
direct and practical mechanism for recognizing frequent and helpful
posters, and lets not forget the reference points a well developed doc
submission (and docs takes plain text submissions too, I'm told, right
nightmorph?) is going to be worth. These sorts of references can be
developed in perhaps six months or so, rather less if you've already a
partially developed docs addition in mind.

> As a consequence I naturally don't have any references (and might not by
> the time I feel ready) but that wouldn't necessarily mean that I'm not
> qualified to be working as a dev. Also one could imagine that a number
> of other people without references, but the necessary qualifications
> might think "To hell with this, I'll just put my effots somewhere else".

Keep in mind that for many of the above, the six months to the
establishment of a reasonable record may be well underway before one ever
decides to take their Gentoo contributions to the next level. As with
character and community references for a job or rental/lease, if you're
finding yourself having to deliberately develop them, you're probably
going about it the wrong way -- by the time you /need/ them, you should
find you just /have/ them, or something's wrong.

IOW, just the fact of this one post is already contributing to the
formation of a reference of community involvement. =:^)

> Another thing, you write that phone is preferred but I know that I act
> relaxed in text with new people and as myself. Whereas on the phone I
> hold back a bit, and don't really act myself. So perhaps the preference
> should be the manner in which the one being interviewed is more
> comfortable with and will act more naturally.

Agreed.

It's interesting, as I'm rather the opposite of you. Personal experience
has demonstrated well enough to me that I don't do well in instant text
contexts, be it texting/IM/IRC. OTOH, I'm reasonably comfortable on the
phone (and VoIP is nice =:^), and on the "async" messaging protocols such
as email/lists/newsgroups/forums, etc, with newsgroups being a strong
favorite.

Some months, <shrug> maybe a year ago, now, someone mentioned (here) that
an IRC interview was a requirement for Gentoo devhood. I followed up on
that, asking about it, and was basically told that if someone's not
willing to do even just the one IRC interview, they may as well not
bother, Gentoo's simply not interested in them as a dev, period. The
position was that refusing to do just that one session, if that's all you
wanted to do, was simply being petty.

Well, I was actually rather glad to get that clarified, because from the
beginning I've always tried to contribute what I could, and always figured
the logical end result of that, if I ever got there, was that I'd probably
end up a Gentoo dev at some point. I've already been around for six
years, and see no reason I'd not be around in double that again, 12 years
out, if Gentoo's still active by then. But I'm simply not going to waste
my time with stuff I know I'm terrible at just to satisfy some hoop-jump
requirement, when there's way more FLOSS community projects begging for my
time than I have time to give them.

So maybe I AM being petty and ridiculous in refusing that hoop-jump. But
it seems to me the shoe fits just as well on the other foot, too. But
OTOH, maybe IRC /is/ a vital skill for a Gentoo dev, thus justifying that
hoop. Regardless, I'm glad I know it now, as now, whenever I read about
the severe lack of devs, I know Gentoo can't use me in that capacity
anyway, so I don't have to think about it any more. I can be just a user
and contribute where I can, here and elsewhere. And as any other user, if
Gentoo ultimately goes down the tubes due to lack of dev interest, well
<shrug>, it's too bad I guess, but as with most users, I'll eventually
find another distribution. And I /am/ reading good things about Arch,
lately. =:^)

But meanwhile, Gentoo remains, I believe, the best possible match for me
/as/ a "power user"; one now affirmed in that status; one who actually
appreciates the ability to control what's on his system and how the
components interact with each other at a level of detail that's difficult
or impossible to get with most distributions. If as a Gentoo user it's
going to be, a Gentoo user I've been for six years and a Gentoo user I may
very well be in another six years, doubled, tripled even, if Gentoo's
still around for me by then...

Or maybe this thread'll trigger some change, and I'll eventually end up a
Gentoo dev, with a bigger bit than it presently seems in shaping the
possibility of having a healthy Gentoo a dozen years from now. User or
dev, doesn't matter. If my contributions help the chances of there being
a healthy Gentoo for me to still be using a dozen years from now, I'm
happy. =:^) Otherwise, there's certainly other places and projects
that'll welcome those contributions, and if Gentoo dies due to lack of
interest from those deemed qualified, holding the fort until the end,
well, there's other distributions. too, and I'm sure I'll find a place as
a user of one of them.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
 
Old 04-05-2010, 03:33 PM
Richard Freeman
 
Default Is Gentoo a Phoenix?

On 04/04/2010 02:09 PM, Denis Dupeyron wrote:


All ideas regarding improving recruitment are welcome, thanks. However
if, during your review, you were not given the impression that your
maturity and other social skills were being assessed then you were
being blissfully naive. )


That actually wasn't what I was trying to convey (guess I need to work
on those communications skills ). I did recognize that you were
looking to assess this, and that you felt that this was of critical
importance.


What I was getting at is trying to identify what aspects of the whole
recruitment process added the most value and which added the least, and
adjusting accordingly. I think that assessing attitude and maturity,
and providing the tools and education needed are the most critical
aspects of recruitment.


That's why I'm all for changing the approach to quizzes - from my
experience it wasn't the quizzes themselves that really added the most
value for me. The interaction that they triggered and getting me to
consider some of the more critical issues that come up in ebuild
maintenance added far more value than getting every detail of the
answers 100% correct.


The quizzes are just a tool - not the ultimate validators of ability.
Let's use every tool at our disposal in the best way possible.


Rich
 

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