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Old 04-03-2010, 09:16 AM
Tobias Scherbaum
 
Default Is Gentoo dying?

Hell no, but ...

We have lots of quite understaffed areas, to sum up in a positive way.
Summing it up the negative way one might say, we have lots of areas were
users might get the idea Gentoo already is dead.

For example:
- hardened-sources are nowadays only available in an experimental
overlay, lots of users keep asking what's happening to the
hardened-sources on both the -dev but also the -hardened mailinglist.
Yeah, we do have people working on hardened stuff, but if people just
take what's happening in the portage tree they might think that the
hardened stuff they're relying on for their business isn't supported any
longer.

- Our formerly outstanding documentation still is somewhat maintained,
but that's it. I haven't seen any new additions (both to our docs, but
also to our docs-team) for years. People are constantly asking for a
documentation wiki, but ...

- Infra: One might get the idea our Infra team is just Robin (yeah, sure
there are more people, but ....) ... things are happening slowly (no
offend - I fully understand that those few can't dedicate more of their
spare time to infra work!), take overlays.g.o migration, Bugzie-3
migration and so on as an example.

- Understaffed herds: For example net-mail, netmon and others - were
missing lots of developers and their support in lots of areas. Sadly
those areas are mostly those ones, one might need packages for their
business servers from.

- Website redesign - we had a contest some years ago, got a winner,
someone started to adapt the design and somewhat that project fall
asleep.

- Speaking of our website, PR ... guess there's nothing more to add.

So - what to do now? To be honest - I have no real clue. But a first
step might be to collect your opinions on where we do lack manpower and
ideas on how to solve this problems. A Wiki might be fitting well for
that task *cough*. A next step might be to discuss every identified
problem and discuss our options and ideas how to improve the situation.

- Tobias

--
Praxisbuch Nagios
http://www.oreilly.de/catalog/pbnagiosger/

https://www.xing.com/profile/Tobias_Scherbaum
 
Old 04-03-2010, 09:26 AM
"Paweł Hajdan, Jr."
 
Default Is Gentoo dying?

On 4/3/10 11:16 AM, Tobias Scherbaum wrote:
> Hell no, but ...
>
> We have lots of quite understaffed areas, to sum up in a positive way.
> Summing it up the negative way one might say, we have lots of areas were
> users might get the idea Gentoo already is dead.
>
> For example:
> - hardened-sources are nowadays only available in an experimental
> overlay, lots of users keep asking what's happening to the
> hardened-sources on both the -dev but also the -hardened mailinglist.

I recently sent an e-mail to gentoo-dev,
<http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_2eb703ee97afc64a29e5d148457ac8d5.xml>

It seems that some work is being done, but there are people who
volunteered to help, like me. What needs to be done with hardened-sources?

Just a note: I'm using it on my servers, so I'm really interested in
them being maintained, and I'm also able to test.
 
Old 04-03-2010, 09:37 AM
Brian Harring
 
Default Is Gentoo dying?

On Sat, Apr 03, 2010 at 11:16:32AM +0200, Tobias Scherbaum wrote:
> Hell no, but ...

Then avoid feeding the distrowatch trolls w/ sensational
subjects please


> We have lots of quite understaffed areas, to sum up in a positive way.
> Summing it up the negative way one might say, we have lots of areas were
> users might get the idea Gentoo already is dead.

Got any metrics offhand? The reason I ask is that I can't think of a
time when 'understaffed' wasn't an applicable term.

Sidenote, if we *aren't* tracking the basics, it might be worthwhile.
Shouldn't be too hard to grab the history of herds.xml for example and
extract the relevant data.

One thing to note... crappy support for something can draw people out
to contribute. Hence asking about metrics- I wouldn't be surprised if
the headcount for misc. projects is a cyclic rise/fall.

At the very least I'd be curious about the pre and post git metrics,
once that conversion is finished up.


> - Infra: One might get the idea our Infra team is just Robin (yeah, sure
> there are more people, but ....) ... things are happening slowly (no
> offend - I fully understand that those few can't dedicate more of their
> spare time to infra work!), take overlays.g.o migration, Bugzie-3
> migration and so on as an example.

Relaying from IRC, overlays.g.o migration bits seem to be done...


> - Website redesign - we had a contest some years ago, got a winner,
> someone started to adapt the design and somewhat that project fall
> asleep.

A status update on this one would be useful, even if it's just "got no
time, here's what is remaining" so someone could jump in and help
where possible.

Personally I'd suggest trying to extract status updates from folk-
it's more useful anyways to know what's needed to get various projects
done.

~harring
 
Old 04-03-2010, 09:38 AM
Petteri Räty
 
Default Is Gentoo dying?

On 04/03/2010 12:16 PM, Tobias Scherbaum wrote:

>
> - Infra: One might get the idea our Infra team is just Robin (yeah, sure
> there are more people, but ....) ... things are happening slowly (no
> offend - I fully understand that those few can't dedicate more of their
> spare time to infra work!), take overlays.g.o migration, Bugzie-3
> migration and so on as an example.
>

My perception from the outside is also that it's sometimes hard to offer
help. So if we now that we are busy then let's try to embrace others
doing the work.

Regards,
Petteri
 
Old 04-03-2010, 09:40 AM
"Robin H. Johnson"
 
Default Is Gentoo dying?

On Sat, Apr 03, 2010 at 11:16:32AM +0200, Tobias Scherbaum wrote:
> - Infra: One might get the idea our Infra team is just Robin (yeah, sure
> there are more people, but ....) ... things are happening slowly (no
> offend - I fully understand that those few can't dedicate more of their
> spare time to infra work!), take overlays.g.o migration, Bugzie-3
> migration and so on as an example.
- Presently in the infra team and active on a day-to-day basis:
darkside
ford_prefect
halcy0n
idl0r
robbat2
- In the infra team and active several times/month:
fox2mike
kingtaco
ramereth
solar
armin76

Problems in infra:
- lack of communication and perceived transparency
- We'd like to open read-only access to our Nagios soon...
- lack of perceived progress
- The perceived big ticket items appear to move very slowly, because
they are much lower priority than day-to-day running of infra.

I do have an announcement to make in the next day or 3 about some infra
stuff that's going on, because it's going to affect every developer.

Question for you there, you said 'overlays.g.o migration'. What
migration? It moved to the "new" hardware more than a year ago.

> - Website redesign - we had a contest some years ago, got a winner,
> someone started to adapt the design and somewhat that project fall
> asleep.
The guy that was doing the redesign changes vanished for a long time,
he's been around again lately however.

> So - what to do now? To be honest - I have no real clue. But a first
> step might be to collect your opinions on where we do lack manpower and
> ideas on how to solve this problems. A Wiki might be fitting well for
> that task *cough*. A next step might be to discuss every identified
> problem and discuss our options and ideas how to improve the situation.
Discussion on wiki has been going on for a while, I'll come, in a couple
of months probably, but I still haven't heard anything of my call for
people that were willing to do the work of editors and spam removal.

--
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Developer, Trustee & Infrastructure Lead
E-Mail : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85
 
Old 04-03-2010, 09:46 AM
"Robin H. Johnson"
 
Default Is Gentoo dying?

On Sat, Apr 03, 2010 at 09:40:12AM +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > So - what to do now? To be honest - I have no real clue. But a first
> > step might be to collect your opinions on where we do lack manpower and
> > ideas on how to solve this problems. A Wiki might be fitting well for
> > that task *cough*. A next step might be to discuss every identified
> > problem and discuss our options and ideas how to improve the situation.
> Discussion on wiki has been going on for a while, I'll come, in a couple
> of months probably, but I still haven't heard anything of my call for
> people that were willing to do the work of editors and spam removal.
"It'll come". That typo sucked.

--
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Developer, Trustee & Infrastructure Lead
E-Mail : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85
 
Old 04-03-2010, 10:10 AM
Tobias Scherbaum
 
Default Is Gentoo dying?

Am Samstag, den 03.04.2010, 02:37 -0700 schrieb Brian Harring:
> On Sat, Apr 03, 2010 at 11:16:32AM +0200, Tobias Scherbaum wrote:
> > Hell no, but ...
>
> Then avoid feeding the distrowatch trolls w/ sensational
> subjects please

oh, well

> > We have lots of quite understaffed areas, to sum up in a positive way.
> > Summing it up the negative way one might say, we have lots of areas were
> > users might get the idea Gentoo already is dead.
>
> Got any metrics offhand? The reason I ask is that I can't think of a
> time when 'understaffed' wasn't an applicable term.

Metrics are a problem and i'm pretty sure you won't get any somewhat
"correct" metrics as we have lots of herds which do have some developers
listed as herd members, who are mia for quite some time. Still when
considering herd members who did a commit to a package belonging to
given herd in the past say 4 weeks as active you won't get useful
metrics.

> Sidenote, if we *aren't* tracking the basics, it might be worthwhile.
> Shouldn't be too hard to grab the history of herds.xml for example and
> extract the relevant data.
>
> One thing to note... crappy support for something can draw people out
> to contribute. Hence asking about metrics- I wouldn't be surprised if
> the headcount for misc. projects is a cyclic rise/fall.
>
> At the very least I'd be curious about the pre and post git metrics,
> once that conversion is finished up.
>
>
> > - Infra: One might get the idea our Infra team is just Robin (yeah, sure
> > there are more people, but ....) ... things are happening slowly (no
> > offend - I fully understand that those few can't dedicate more of their
> > spare time to infra work!), take overlays.g.o migration, Bugzie-3
> > migration and so on as an example.
>
> Relaying from IRC, overlays.g.o migration bits seem to be done...

Yeah, probably i had something wrong in mind. Nevermind.

Tbh, my intention wasn't to discuss the _examples_ i listed, but to hear
all your opinions and ideas on where we do have problems and how to
solve them.

> > - Website redesign - we had a contest some years ago, got a winner,
> > someone started to adapt the design and somewhat that project fall
> > asleep.
>
> A status update on this one would be useful, even if it's just "got no
> time, here's what is remaining" so someone could jump in and help
> where possible.
>
> Personally I'd suggest trying to extract status updates from folk-
> it's more useful anyways to know what's needed to get various projects
> done.

Yeah, status updates++ ... at least active projects/herds (like what
Robin said about Infra) would be considered more active then

- Tobias

--
Praxisbuch Nagios
http://www.oreilly.de/catalog/pbnagiosger/

https://www.xing.com/profile/Tobias_Scherbaum
 
Old 04-03-2010, 10:12 AM
Tobias Scherbaum
 
Default Is Gentoo dying?

Am Samstag, den 03.04.2010, 11:26 +0200 schrieb "Paweł Hajdan, Jr.":
> > For example:
> > - hardened-sources are nowadays only available in an experimental
> > overlay, lots of users keep asking what's happening to the
> > hardened-sources on both the -dev but also the -hardened mailinglist.
>
> I recently sent an e-mail to gentoo-dev,
> <http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_2eb703ee97afc64a29e5d148457ac8d5.xml>

Yeah, seen that.

> It seems that some work is being done, but there are people who
> volunteered to help, like me. What needs to be done with hardened-sources?
>
> Just a note: I'm using it on my servers, so I'm really interested in
> them being maintained, and I'm also able to test.

See - what we've been doing with people like you who are willing to
contribute was something like "Hey, nice to see you. Get in touch with
the correct people, please" - and i'm pretty sure there are many options
on how to improve our handling of people like you, who are willing to
contribute some amount of time to the Gentoo Project.

- Tobias

--
Praxisbuch Nagios
http://www.oreilly.de/catalog/pbnagiosger/

https://www.xing.com/profile/Tobias_Scherbaum
 
Old 04-03-2010, 02:40 PM
Roy Bamford
 
Default Is Gentoo dying?

On 2010.04.03 10:16, Tobias Scherbaum wrote:
> Hell no, but ...
>
> We have lots of quite understaffed areas, to sum up in a positive
> way.
> Summing it up the negative way one might say, we have lots of areas
> were
> users might get the idea Gentoo already is dead.
>
> For example:
[snip lots of anecdotal evidence]
> - Tobias
>
> --
> Praxisbuch Nagios
> http://www.oreilly.de/catalog/pbnagiosger/
>
> https://www.xing.com/profile/Tobias_Scherbaum
>

First, we need some metrics - the first step to controlling anything is
to measure it.

Once we have some metrics, we can prioritise.

With priorities, we can identify gaps in our resource pool (not just
people) and attempt to fill them with recruiting.

Maybe thats a bugday topic ?
An open day for users who would like to become contributors and
contributors who would like to become devs.

--
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees
 
Old 04-03-2010, 02:59 PM
Tobias Scherbaum
 
Default Is Gentoo dying?

Am Samstag, den 03.04.2010, 15:40 +0100 schrieb Roy Bamford:
> First, we need some metrics - the first step to controlling anything is
> to measure it.

So, how do you want to measure those metrics? I for one can't think of a
useful algorithm which helps to identify understaffed or orphaned areas.
Sure, one might take a look at the number of packages compared with open
bugs for example - but in the end that still won't give you some useful
metrics.

If someone has a feeling somewhere helping hands are missing or an area
is orphaned - that's the best "metrics" we can get.

- Tobias

--
Praxisbuch Nagios
http://www.oreilly.de/catalog/pbnagiosger/

https://www.xing.com/profile/Tobias_Scherbaum
 

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