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Old 03-25-2010, 06:05 PM
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

2010-03-25 19:34:24 Roy Bamford napisał(a):
> On 2010.03.24 21:12, William Hubbs wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 09:36:52PM +0100, Ben de Groot wrote:
> > > On 24 March 2010 21:25, William Hubbs <williamh@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > > If we make it clear in the news item that python-3 cannot be used
> > as the
> > > > default python, so if users do not want it they should mask it,
> > we
> > have
> > > > done our job imho. In other words, this is just a matter of
> > informing
> > > > users.
> > >
> > > We agree that this is the minimum that should be done. But our
> > > Python lead stubbornly refuses to honor this reasonable request.
> >
> > On the other hand, I can see his point as well. The news item makes
> > it
> > very clear that python-3 cannot be the default python and that
> > python-2
> > needs to be installed.
> >
> > It could be argued that he is just assuming that users are
> > intelligent
> > enough to figure out that they need to mask python-3 if they
> > do not want it on their systems.
> >
> > Basically this is a case of "how much hand-holding do we want to do"?
> >
> > William
> >
> >
>
> The case where Python-3 cannot be used as the default Python is
> transitory (it may be a long time).

Gentoo Python Project will soon start supporting setting Python 3 as main
active version of Python. Currently about 57% of our packages from dev-python
category are prepared.

--
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
 
Old 03-26-2010, 06:59 AM
"Marijn Schouten (hkBst)"
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On Thursday 25 March 2010 20:05:17 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
> 2010-03-25 19:34:24 Roy Bamford napisał(a):
> > On 2010.03.24 21:12, William Hubbs wrote:
> > The case where Python-3 cannot be used as the default Python is
> > transitory (it may be a long time).
>
> Gentoo Python Project will soon start supporting setting Python 3 as main
> active version of Python. Currently about 57% of our packages from dev-python
> category are prepared.

That's really good news! Why not wait a little bit until this is accomplished?
I know it would make me feel a lot more comfortable with having python 3 in stable.

Marijn
 
Old 03-26-2010, 08:02 AM
Pacho Ramos
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

El jue, 25-03-2010 a las 11:37 -0400, Richard Freeman escribi:
> On 03/24/2010 11:47 PM, Joshua Saddler wrote:
> > Even then, it'll likely get
> > installed first, as users will probably learn about p.masking it only
> > *after* they install it.
>
> I don't have strong feelings on whether having v3 installed by default
> is a big problem, but the last bit here probably should be addressed.
>
> The current news item only shows up for people with python 3.1 already
> installed. Would it make sense to have it show up for anybody with any
> version of python installed? Otherwise it is news after-the-fact.
>
> Rich
>

Hello

Maybe I have misunderstood anything (since I don't know much about
python stuff) but, what would occur if I forget to mask python-3 and
don't run python-updater. My plans would be to try to delay
python-updater running until I switch to use python3, because some
machines I maintain are quite old and takes some time to re-emerge all
python apps :-/

Thanks for the info
 
Old 03-26-2010, 11:10 AM
Zac Medico
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On 03/26/2010 02:02 AM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> El jue, 25-03-2010 a las 11:37 -0400, Richard Freeman escribi:
>> On 03/24/2010 11:47 PM, Joshua Saddler wrote:
>>> Even then, it'll likely get
>>> installed first, as users will probably learn about p.masking it only
>>> *after* they install it.
>>
>> I don't have strong feelings on whether having v3 installed by default
>> is a big problem, but the last bit here probably should be addressed.
>>
>> The current news item only shows up for people with python 3.1 already
>> installed. Would it make sense to have it show up for anybody with any
>> version of python installed? Otherwise it is news after-the-fact.
>>
>> Rich
>>
>
> Hello
>
> Maybe I have misunderstood anything (since I don't know much about
> python stuff) but, what would occur if I forget to mask python-3 and
> don't run python-updater. My plans would be to try to delay
> python-updater running until I switch to use python3, because some
> machines I maintain are quite old and takes some time to re-emerge all
> python apps :-/
>
> Thanks for the info

If you don't want to run python-updater, then you'd better mask
python3 and uninstall it. Otherwise, you'll encounter build failures
due to new packages trying to build for python3 when their
dependencies haven't been rebuilt with python3 support. There's no
harm done since it's easy to mask and uninstall python3 at this
point, thereby avoiding the need to run python-updater.
--
Thanks,
Zac
 
Old 03-26-2010, 11:21 AM
Zac Medico
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On 03/26/2010 12:59 AM, Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote:
> On Thursday 25 March 2010 20:05:17 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
>> 2010-03-25 19:34:24 Roy Bamford napisał(a):
>>> On 2010.03.24 21:12, William Hubbs wrote:
>>> The case where Python-3 cannot be used as the default Python is
>>> transitory (it may be a long time).
>>
>> Gentoo Python Project will soon start supporting setting Python 3 as main
>> active version of Python. Currently about 57% of our packages from dev-python
>> category are prepared.
>
> That's really good news! Why not wait a little bit until this is accomplished?
> I know it would make me feel a lot more comfortable with having python 3 in stable.

I don't see any gain in delaying the stabilization except that
people who decide they don't have resources to spare for python3
will have more time before they need to mask it locally. This subset
of people probably won't change much whether it's stabilized now or
a year from now. So, it's mostly a question of whether these people
need to mask in now or mask it later.
--
Thanks,
Zac
 
Old 03-26-2010, 11:33 AM
Pacho Ramos
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

El vie, 26-03-2010 a las 05:10 -0700, Zac Medico escribi:
> > Hello
> >
> > Maybe I have misunderstood anything (since I don't know much about
> > python stuff) but, what would occur if I forget to mask python-3 and
> > don't run python-updater. My plans would be to try to delay
> > python-updater running until I switch to use python3, because some
> > machines I maintain are quite old and takes some time to re-emerge all
> > python apps :-/
> >
> > Thanks for the info
>
> If you don't want to run python-updater, then you'd better mask
> python3 and uninstall it. Otherwise, you'll encounter build failures
> due to new packages trying to build for python3 when their
> dependencies haven't been rebuilt with python3 support. There's no
> harm done since it's easy to mask and uninstall python3 at this
> point, thereby avoiding the need to run python-updater.

Thanks a lot Zac for the explanation

Arfrever, could this be noted in news item? I mean, since you are
clearly in favor of python3 stabilization, you have prepared news item
and *seems to me* that you prefer to not suggest or "recommend" its
local masking in that news item, maybe you could find a way to write
news informing users that they will need mask new python if they prefer
to postpone python-updater run (since I think some users, like me, will
prefer to not rebuild lots of packages until most of them will work with
newer python), that way it wouldn't "sound" as much like a "generic
recommendation" but more like a needed step for users not wanting to run
python-updater yet (that would be like a "special case" common enough to
take care of it).

Would it be ok for you? Maybe that way most of us could reach a
consensus on this :-)

Thanks a lot
 
Old 03-26-2010, 11:35 AM
Zac Medico
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On 03/24/2010 08:47 PM, Joshua Saddler wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 16:12:55 -0500
> William Hubbs <williamh@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 09:36:52PM +0100, Ben de Groot wrote:
>>> We agree that this is the minimum that should be done. But our
>>> Python lead stubbornly refuses to honor this reasonable request.
>>
>> On the other hand, I can see his point as well. The news item makes it
>> very clear that python-3 cannot be the default python and that python-2
>> needs to be installed.
>
> Again, if it *cannot* be the default python, then it *should not* be installed by default, which is what will happen if it's marked stable and users aren't told to p.mask it. Even then, it'll likely get installed first, as users will probably learn about p.masking it only *after* they install it.

Do we have a precedent on this, if for example, we look at the last
time that a new slot of java (like 1.5) came out that wasn't
supported by all packages and therefore couldn't be set as the
default system jvm?
--
Thanks,
Zac
 
Old 03-26-2010, 01:22 PM
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2010-03-25 20:05:17 napisał(a):
> 2010-03-25 19:34:24 Roy Bamford napisał(a):
> > The case where Python-3 cannot be used as the default Python is
> > transitory (it may be a long time).
>
> Gentoo Python Project will soon start supporting setting Python 3 as main
> active version of Python. Currently about 57% of our packages from dev-python
> category are prepared.

My script was wrong. More correct data:
About 55% of packages in dev-python category belonging to python herd are prepared.
100% of packages in net-zope category belonging to python herd are prepared.
About 60% of packages belonging to python herd are prepared.
About 47% of packages in dev-python category not belonging to python herd are prepared.
About 13% of packages not belonging to python herd are prepared.
About 34% of all packages depending on Python are prepared.

--
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
 
Old 03-26-2010, 02:40 PM
Brian Harring
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 05:35:19AM -0700, Zac Medico wrote:
> On 03/24/2010 08:47 PM, Joshua Saddler wrote:
> > On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 16:12:55 -0500
> > William Hubbs <williamh@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 09:36:52PM +0100, Ben de Groot wrote:
> >>> We agree that this is the minimum that should be done. But our
> >>> Python lead stubbornly refuses to honor this reasonable request.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, I can see his point as well. The news item makes it
> >> very clear that python-3 cannot be the default python and that python-2
> >> needs to be installed.
> >
> > Again, if it *cannot* be the default python, then it *should not* be installed by default, which is what will happen if it's marked stable and users aren't told to p.mask it. Even then, it'll likely get installed first, as users will probably learn about p.masking it only *after* they install it.
>
> Do we have a precedent on this, if for example, we look at the last
> time that a new slot of java (like 1.5) came out that wasn't
> supported by all packages and therefore couldn't be set as the
> default system jvm?

There really isn't a precedent since upgrades of this sort typically
either have extremely locked down deps, or just plain don't happen
till the vast majority of depndencies are updated. If in doubt, look
at the past python upgrades- they've been delayed till all of the
major consumers played nice w/ the targeted python version.

~harring
 
Old 03-26-2010, 02:43 PM
Brian Harring
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 03:22:52PM +0100, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
> Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2010-03-25 20:05:17 napisał(a):
> > 2010-03-25 19:34:24 Roy Bamford napisał(a):
> > > The case where Python-3 cannot be used as the default Python is
> > > transitory (it may be a long time).
> >
> > Gentoo Python Project will soon start supporting setting Python 3 as main
> > active version of Python. Currently about 57% of our packages from dev-python
> > category are prepared.
>
> My script was wrong. More correct data:
> About 55% of packages in dev-python category belonging to python herd are prepared.
> 100% of packages in net-zope category belonging to python herd are prepared.
> About 60% of packages belonging to python herd are prepared.
> About 47% of packages in dev-python category not belonging to python herd are prepared.
> About 13% of packages not belonging to python herd are prepared.
> About 34% of all packages depending on Python are prepared.

I get the feeling your phrasing here is a bit misleading- 'support
setting py3k as main active python' implies that the stats above are
the # of pkgs in the tree supporting *using* a py3k interpretter.

I'm betting you mean "support multi-abi", meaning if you've got py2.6
and py3.1, it'll install into py2.6, while avoiding py3k. Fair bit of
a difference.

Kindly clarify- if over half of the raw dev-python pkgs are py3k
parsable I'm going to be very, very surprised.

~harring
 

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