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Old 03-26-2010, 02:57 PM
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

2010-03-26 16:40:37 Brian Harring napisał(a):
> There really isn't a precedent since upgrades of this sort typically
> either have extremely locked down deps, or just plain don't happen
> till the vast majority of depndencies are updated. If in doubt, look
> at the past python upgrades- they've been delayed till all of the
> major consumers played nice w/ the targeted python version.

Main active version of Python was automatically updated during previous Python
upgrades, but it's not updated during installation of Python 3.1.

--
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
 
Old 03-26-2010, 03:04 PM
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

2010-03-26 16:43:57 Brian Harring napisał(a):
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 03:22:52PM +0100, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
> > Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2010-03-25 20:05:17 napisał(a):
> > > 2010-03-25 19:34:24 Roy Bamford napisał(a):
> > > > The case where Python-3 cannot be used as the default Python is
> > > > transitory (it may be a long time).
> > >
> > > Gentoo Python Project will soon start supporting setting Python 3 as main
> > > active version of Python. Currently about 57% of our packages from dev-python
> > > category are prepared.
> >
> > My script was wrong. More correct data:
> > About 55% of packages in dev-python category belonging to python herd are prepared.
> > 100% of packages in net-zope category belonging to python herd are prepared.
> > About 60% of packages belonging to python herd are prepared.
> > About 47% of packages in dev-python category not belonging to python herd are prepared.
> > About 13% of packages not belonging to python herd are prepared.
> > About 34% of all packages depending on Python are prepared.
>
> I get the feeling your phrasing here is a bit misleading- 'support
> setting py3k as main active python' implies that the stats above are
> the # of pkgs in the tree supporting *using* a py3k interpretter.
>
> I'm betting you mean "support multi-abi", meaning if you've got py2.6
> and py3.1, it'll install into py2.6, while avoiding py3k. Fair bit of
> a difference.

These numbers include packages which support installation for multiple Python ABIs
and packages which call python_set_active_version().

--
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
 
Old 03-26-2010, 03:08 PM
Dale
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:

2010-03-26 16:40:37 Brian Harring napisał(a):


There really isn't a precedent since upgrades of this sort typically
either have extremely locked down deps, or just plain don't happen
till the vast majority of depndencies are updated. If in doubt, look
at the past python upgrades- they've been delayed till all of the
major consumers played nice w/ the targeted python version.


Main active version of Python was automatically updated during previous Python
upgrades, but it's not updated during installation of Python 3.1.




As a user, I still think this could turn into a real mess. I think
there will be quite a few that will see python being updated, run
python-updater and switch it to the new python. At that point, it is
going to hit the fan. I know because this is what I always do. News
item or not, when python gets updated, I run python-updater and make
sure it is selected.


If this somehow breaks portage, which it shouldn't since apparently
portage is fine with the new python, then it is going to really hit the fan.


Me, I'm going to make SURE nothing changes on my system. Then I'm going
to sit back and see what happens, good or bad. I can't imagine anything
good but I sure can imagine bad things.


Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 03-26-2010, 03:15 PM
Brian Harring
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 05:04:28PM +0100, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
> 2010-03-26 16:43:57 Brian Harring napisał(a):
> > On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 03:22:52PM +0100, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
> > > Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2010-03-25 20:05:17 napisał(a):
> > > > 2010-03-25 19:34:24 Roy Bamford napisał(a):
> > > > > The case where Python-3 cannot be used as the default Python is
> > > > > transitory (it may be a long time).
> > > >
> > > > Gentoo Python Project will soon start supporting setting Python 3 as main
> > > > active version of Python. Currently about 57% of our packages from dev-python
> > > > category are prepared.
> > >
> > > My script was wrong. More correct data:
> > > About 55% of packages in dev-python category belonging to python herd are prepared.
> > > 100% of packages in net-zope category belonging to python herd are prepared.
> > > About 60% of packages belonging to python herd are prepared.
> > > About 47% of packages in dev-python category not belonging to python herd are prepared.
> > > About 13% of packages not belonging to python herd are prepared.
> > > About 34% of all packages depending on Python are prepared.
> >
> > I get the feeling your phrasing here is a bit misleading- 'support
> > setting py3k as main active python' implies that the stats above are
> > the # of pkgs in the tree supporting *using* a py3k interpretter.
> >
> > I'm betting you mean "support multi-abi", meaning if you've got py2.6
> > and py3.1, it'll install into py2.6, while avoiding py3k. Fair bit of
> > a difference.
>
> These numbers include packages which support installation for multiple Python ABIs
> and packages which call python_set_active_version().

Bleh. So in other words a third of the pkgs that dep on python have
the minimal basics for dealing w/ py3k landing. I'd question what
percentile have proper locked deps also (stating they're py2k only),
but that's a seperate discussion.

That *still* doesn't answer the question of how many can be *ran* by
py3k also.

Note in the past when breakages of this sort have been unleashed, the
percentile of prepared pkgs has been generally a helluva lot higher-
having 90% prepared is one thing, but y'all aren't at that point and
you've got 3 weeks (after what, 3 months?) to bring the percentile
higher then a third?

What's the minimal percentile you're aiming for prior to the
unmasking?

~harring
 
Old 03-26-2010, 03:28 PM
Alec Warner
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
>>
>> 2010-03-26 16:40:37 Brian Harring napisał(a):
>>
>>>
>>> There really isn't a precedent since upgrades of this sort typically
>>> either have extremely locked down deps, or just plain don't happen
>>> till the vast majority of depndencies are updated. *If in doubt, look
>>> at the past python upgrades- they've been delayed till all of the
>>> major consumers played nice w/ the targeted python version.
>>>
>>
>> Main active version of Python was automatically updated during previous
>> Python
>> upgrades, but it's not updated during installation of Python 3.1.
>>
>>
>
> As a user, I still think this could turn into a real mess. *I think there
> will be quite a few that will see python being updated, run python-updater
> and switch it to the new python. *At that point, it is going to hit the fan.
> *I know because this is what I always do. *News item or not, when python
> gets updated, I run python-updater and make sure it is selected.

My assumption here is that eselect-python will not let you select v3
as your python version without some prodding (eg setting stupid
environment variables or similar.)

>
> If this somehow breaks portage, which it shouldn't since apparently portage
> is fine with the new python, then it is going to really hit the fan.
>
> Me, I'm going to make SURE nothing changes on my system. *Then I'm going to
> sit back and see what happens, good or bad. *I can't imagine anything good
> but I sure can imagine bad things.

Such faith

>
> Dale
>
> :-) *:-)
>
>
 
Old 03-26-2010, 03:37 PM
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

2010-03-26 17:15:42 Brian Harring napisał(a):
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 05:04:28PM +0100, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
> > 2010-03-26 16:43:57 Brian Harring napisał(a):
> > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 03:22:52PM +0100, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
> > > > Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2010-03-25 20:05:17 napisał(a):
> > > > > 2010-03-25 19:34:24 Roy Bamford napisał(a):
> > > > > > The case where Python-3 cannot be used as the default Python is
> > > > > > transitory (it may be a long time).
> > > > >
> > > > > Gentoo Python Project will soon start supporting setting Python 3 as main
> > > > > active version of Python. Currently about 57% of our packages from dev-python
> > > > > category are prepared.
> > > >
> > > > My script was wrong. More correct data:
> > > > About 55% of packages in dev-python category belonging to python herd are prepared.
> > > > 100% of packages in net-zope category belonging to python herd are prepared.
> > > > About 60% of packages belonging to python herd are prepared.
> > > > About 47% of packages in dev-python category not belonging to python herd are prepared.
> > > > About 13% of packages not belonging to python herd are prepared.
> > > > About 34% of all packages depending on Python are prepared.
> > >
> > > I get the feeling your phrasing here is a bit misleading- 'support
> > > setting py3k as main active python' implies that the stats above are
> > > the # of pkgs in the tree supporting *using* a py3k interpretter.
> > >
> > > I'm betting you mean "support multi-abi", meaning if you've got py2.6
> > > and py3.1, it'll install into py2.6, while avoiding py3k. Fair bit of
> > > a difference.
> >
> > These numbers include packages which support installation for multiple Python ABIs
> > and packages which call python_set_active_version().
>
> Bleh. So in other words a third of the pkgs that dep on python have
> the minimal basics for dealing w/ py3k landing. I'd question what
> percentile have proper locked deps also (stating they're py2k only),
> but that's a seperate discussion.
>
> That *still* doesn't answer the question of how many can be *ran* by
> py3k also.
>
> Note in the past when breakages of this sort have been unleashed, the
> percentile of prepared pkgs has been generally a helluva lot higher-
> having 90% prepared is one thing, but y'all aren't at that point and
> you've got 3 weeks (after what, 3 months?) to bring the percentile
> higher then a third?
>
> What's the minimal percentile you're aiming for prior to the
> unmasking?

Python ebuilds will start automatically setting Python 3 as main active
version of Python when all bugs blocking bug #308257 are fixed.

--
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
 
Old 03-26-2010, 04:27 PM
Jeremy Olexa
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:28:29 +0000, Alec Warner <antarus@gentoo.org>
wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

>> As a user, I still think this could turn into a real mess. *I think
there
>> will be quite a few that will see python being updated, run
python-updater
>> and switch it to the new python. *At that point, it is going to hit the
fan.
>> *I know because this is what I always do. *News item or not, when
python
>> gets updated, I run python-updater and make sure it is selected.
>
> My assumption here is that eselect-python will not let you select v3
> as your python version without some prodding (eg setting stupid
> environment variables or similar.)

Alec, don't assume

* Messages for package dev-lang/python-3.1.2:

*
* WARNING!
* Many Python modules haven't been ported yet to Python 3.*.
* Python 3 hasn't been activated and Python wrapper is still configured
to use Python 2.
* You can manually activate Python 3.1 using `eselect python set
python3.1`.
* It is recommended to currently have Python wrapper configured to use
Python 2.
* Having Python wrapper configured to use Python 3 is unsupported.

%% sudo eselect python set python3.1
%% python --version
Python 3.1.2

-Jeremy
 
Old 03-26-2010, 04:43 PM
Dale
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

Alec Warner wrote:

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:


Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:


2010-03-26 16:40:37 Brian Harring napisał(a):



There really isn't a precedent since upgrades of this sort typically
either have extremely locked down deps, or just plain don't happen
till the vast majority of depndencies are updated. If in doubt, look
at the past python upgrades- they've been delayed till all of the
major consumers played nice w/ the targeted python version.



Main active version of Python was automatically updated during previous
Python
upgrades, but it's not updated during installation of Python 3.1.




As a user, I still think this could turn into a real mess. I think there
will be quite a few that will see python being updated, run python-updater
and switch it to the new python. At that point, it is going to hit the fan.
I know because this is what I always do. News item or not, when python
gets updated, I run python-updater and make sure it is selected.


My assumption here is that eselect-python will not let you select v3
as your python version without some prodding (eg setting stupid
environment variables or similar.)



root@smoker ~ # eselect python list
Available Python interpreters:
[1] python2.6 *
[2] python3.1
root@smoker ~ # eselect python set 2
root@smoker ~ # eselect python list
Available Python interpreters:
[1] python2.6
[2] python3.1 *
root@smoker ~ #


That was pretty easy to select the new python. Everything I did was
right there. Two commands and it is switched. This is where problems
will start.




If this somehow breaks portage, which it shouldn't since apparently portage
is fine with the new python, then it is going to really hit the fan.

Me, I'm going to make SURE nothing changes on my system. Then I'm going to
sit back and see what happens, good or bad. I can't imagine anything good
but I sure can imagine bad things.


Such faith



Dale

:-) :-)





It's not faith, its reality. There will be some people that don't
subscribe to this list that will do what is above. This IS the reason I
subscribed to this list. I wanted to know what the devs were doing
under the hood that would lead me to screw up my system. It's amazing
how much fewer problems I have had since I started watching this list.


Also, if python3 is marked as "stable," people will assume it is safe to
switch to. That's what "stable" means.


Back to my hole.

Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 03-26-2010, 04:53 PM
George Prowse
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On 26/03/2010 17:43, Dale wrote:

It's not faith, its reality. There will be some people that don't
subscribe to this list that will do what is above. This IS the reason I
subscribed to this list. I wanted to know what the devs were doing under
the hood that would lead me to screw up my system. It's amazing how much
fewer problems I have had since I started watching this list.

Also, if python3 is marked as "stable," people will assume it is safe to
switch to. That's what "stable" means.

Back to my hole.

Dale

:-) :-)



It's Gentoo and naturally users are like magpies, they like everything
newest, highest and shiniest.
 
Old 03-26-2010, 05:39 PM
Dale
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

George Prowse wrote:

On 26/03/2010 17:43, Dale wrote:

It's not faith, its reality. There will be some people that don't
subscribe to this list that will do what is above. This IS the reason I
subscribed to this list. I wanted to know what the devs were doing under
the hood that would lead me to screw up my system. It's amazing how much
fewer problems I have had since I started watching this list.

Also, if python3 is marked as "stable," people will assume it is safe to
switch to. That's what "stable" means.

Back to my hole.

Dale

:-) :-)



It's Gentoo and naturally users are like magpies, they like everything
newest, highest and shiniest.





Yep and they will mess up not realizing what they are doing until it is
to late. That's what some of us are worried about, the ones that are
clueless.


Dale

:-) :-)
 

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