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Old 03-19-2010, 07:57 AM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default Packages pulling in python-3*, also they dont require it

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 03:54:28 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:17:17 +0100
> > Ben de Groot<yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Because it is extremely useless to the great majority of users.
> >>
> > Most packages in the tree are useless to the great majority of
> > users.
>
> Which is why most users don't install everything. I have about 1000
> packages installed here. The packages installed are either something
> I use or a dependency of something I use. What exactly is this being
> installed for again? If nothing depends on it, there is no need to
> have it.

It's being installed because it's a dependency of something you use.

Replace Python with any other library and we wouldn't be having this
discussion.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 03-19-2010, 08:23 AM
Dale
 
Default Packages pulling in python-3*, also they dont require it

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 03:54:28 -0500
Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:


Ciaran McCreesh wrote:


On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:17:17 +0100
Ben de Groot<yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:



Because it is extremely useless to the great majority of users.



Most packages in the tree are useless to the great majority of
users.


Which is why most users don't install everything. I have about 1000
packages installed here. The packages installed are either something
I use or a dependency of something I use. What exactly is this being
installed for again? If nothing depends on it, there is no need to
have it.


It's being installed because it's a dependency of something you use.

Replace Python with any other library and we wouldn't be having this
discussion.




OK. Right now, as you type this, what package depends on python-3 and
won't work with python-2? Anything at all? If it is nothing, then why
install it?


Since python-3 is not what the system is using, it's not getting used
even if it is installed. So as I mentioned in another reply, portage is
installing something and it is just sitting there doing nothing. What
is the point in that?


Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 03-19-2010, 08:30 AM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default Packages pulling in python-3*, also they dont require it

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:23:31 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> > It's being installed because it's a dependency of something you use.
> >
> > Replace Python with any other library and we wouldn't be having this
> > discussion.
>
> OK. Right now, as you type this, what package depends on python-3
> and won't work with python-2? Anything at all? If it is nothing,
> then why install it?

And that's where you're making the mistake: you're treating Python as
being different from every other package.

In every other case, you want things to be using the newest version of a
slotted package where possible. Why aren't you complaining that you were
forced to install gcc 4.3 and 4.1 when 3.4 worked just fine?

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 03-19-2010, 08:35 AM
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
 
Default Packages pulling in python-3*, also they dont require it

2010-03-19 10:23:31 Dale napisał(a):
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 03:54:28 -0500
> > Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:17:17 +0100
> >>> Ben de Groot<yngwin@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Because it is extremely useless to the great majority of users.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Most packages in the tree are useless to the great majority of
> >>> users.
> >>>
> >> Which is why most users don't install everything. I have about 1000
> >> packages installed here. The packages installed are either something
> >> I use or a dependency of something I use. What exactly is this being
> >> installed for again? If nothing depends on it, there is no need to
> >> have it.
> >>
> > It's being installed because it's a dependency of something you use.
> >
> > Replace Python with any other library and we wouldn't be having this
> > discussion.
> >
> >
>
> OK. Right now, as you type this, what package depends on python-3 and
> won't work with python-2? Anything at all? If it is nothing, then why
> install it?
>
> Since python-3 is not what the system is using, it's not getting used
> even if it is installed. So as I mentioned in another reply, portage is
> installing something and it is just sitting there doing nothing. What
> is the point in that?

I can add "python2" USE flag (enabled by default) to some versions of
dev-lang/python. With USE="-python2", Python 2 will not be required and
Python 3 will be set as main active version of Python.

--
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
 
Old 03-19-2010, 08:39 AM
Petteri Rńty
 
Default Packages pulling in python-3*, also they dont require it

On 19.3.2010 11.35, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:

>
> I can add "python2" USE flag (enabled by default) to some versions of
> dev-lang/python. With USE="-python2", Python 2 will not be required and
> Python 3 will be set as main active version of Python.
>

You should move to the same scheme that ruby uses. Then users can just
disable the python_version_3 or whatever USE_EXPAND scheme is used.

Regards,
Petteri
 
Old 03-19-2010, 08:40 AM
Brian Harring
 
Default Packages pulling in python-3*, also they dont require it

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 04:23:31AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> OK. Right now, as you type this, what package depends on python-3 and
> won't work with python-2? Anything at all? If it is nothing, then why
> install it?

To some degree it's the users choice which python version they choose
to settle on- a simple server system doing file sharing could actually
be py3k via portage/pkgcore both supporting py3k (including their
dependencies).

As for py3k only pkgs, I'd bet 3to2 is py3k only... it's worth noting
that some new libs are targeting py3k only also (I don't agree with
that, but it's upstreams choice).


> Since python-3 is not what the system is using, it's not getting used
> even if it is installed. So as I mentioned in another reply, portage is
> installing something and it is just sitting there doing nothing. What
> is the point in that?

Mask the freaking package already. The time people have extended in
bitching about this *literally* exceeds the time to type

mkdir -p /etc/portage &&
echo '>=dev-lang/python-3' >> /etc/portage/package.mask


If you consider masking it to be that horrible (or want to keep
expending time), fine- then please do what Betelgeuse has
suggested in IRC and raid from the ruby eclass the USE_EXPAND'd
ruby_targets trickery and integrate that into the python eclass [1].
Via that (and a lot of ebuild cleanup) users could explicitly specify
the python versions they want targeted and it would properly be
represented in the depgraph.

~harring

[1] Note that python.eclass already has something *roughly* similar to
this, but 1) it's not USE based, 2) no one aparently knows about it,
3) from what I've seen most ebuilds haven't really been converted to
handle this properly (yet).
 
Old 03-19-2010, 08:55 AM
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
 
Default Packages pulling in python-3*, also they dont require it

2010-03-19 10:39:07 Petteri R├Ąty napisa┼é(a):
> On 19.3.2010 11.35, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
>
> >
> > I can add "python2" USE flag (enabled by default) to some versions of
> > dev-lang/python. With USE="-python2", Python 2 will not be required and
> > Python 3 will be set as main active version of Python.
> >
>
> You should move to the same scheme that ruby uses. Then users can just
> disable the python_version_3 or whatever USE_EXPAND scheme is used.

We are waiting on ABI dependencies (and extended support for multiple ABIs in
package manager), which will provide some needed functionality.

--
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
 
Old 03-19-2010, 08:56 AM
Brian Harring
 
Default Packages pulling in python-3*, also they dont require it

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 10:55:03AM +0100, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
> 2010-03-19 10:39:07 Petteri R├Ąty napisa┼é(a):
> > On 19.3.2010 11.35, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I can add "python2" USE flag (enabled by default) to some versions of
> > > dev-lang/python. With USE="-python2", Python 2 will not be required and
> > > Python 3 will be set as main active version of Python.
> > >
> >
> > You should move to the same scheme that ruby uses. Then users can just
> > disable the python_version_3 or whatever USE_EXPAND scheme is used.
>
> We are waiting on ABI dependencies (and extended support for multiple ABIs in
> package manager), which will provide some needed functionality.

You can do it now w/out waiting on ABI dependencies- I'm not saying
the dependencies would be pretty, but it's doable to get abi level
depdencies per slotting via expanding out the use combinations.

Note that's a step beyond what's in place now- converting over to the
ruby abuse of USE_EXPAND hands over better control to users now w/ the
same dep gurantees.

So... yeah, it's not reliant on EAPI. An EAPI extension *would* make
it easier, but it's not required to do it (especially since the deps
are already autogenerated to a decent degree).

~harring
 
Old 03-19-2010, 09:01 AM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default Packages pulling in python-3*, also they dont require it

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 02:56:08 -0700
Brian Harring <ferringb@gmail.com> wrote:
> > We are waiting on ABI dependencies (and extended support for
> > multiple ABIs in package manager), which will provide some needed
> > functionality.
>
> You can do it now w/out waiting on ABI dependencies- I'm not saying
> the dependencies would be pretty, but it's doable to get abi level
> depdencies per slotting via expanding out the use combinations.
>
> Note that's a step beyond what's in place now- converting over to the
> ruby abuse of USE_EXPAND hands over better control to users now w/
> the same dep gurantees.
>
> So... yeah, it's not reliant on EAPI. An EAPI extension *would* make
> it easier, but it's not required to do it (especially since the deps
> are already autogenerated to a decent degree).

How would do it and deal with existing packages not having the required
things in IUSE without (+)/(-) use deps? I don't see a way of doing it
legally without those.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 03-19-2010, 09:13 AM
Dale
 
Default Packages pulling in python-3*, also they dont require it

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:23:31 -0500
Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:


It's being installed because it's a dependency of something you use.

Replace Python with any other library and we wouldn't be having this
discussion.


OK. Right now, as you type this, what package depends on python-3
and won't work with python-2? Anything at all? If it is nothing,
then why install it?


And that's where you're making the mistake: you're treating Python as
being different from every other package.

In every other case, you want things to be using the newest version of a
slotted package where possible. Why aren't you complaining that you were
forced to install gcc 4.3 and 4.1 when 3.4 worked just fine?


Because, when I installed gcc 4.3, I could then unmerge the old gcc.
That's why I didn't complain about that. With python, we still have to
have the current version plus the new version which is not being used at
all.


Am I not correct in that? If the new python is installed, what exactly
is going to use it? I used the new gcc. It worked fine. I unmerged
the old one with no wasted space and one less package installed. This
doesn't appear to be the case with python-3 tho. It's going to be
installed and just sit there like a rock.


Dale

:-) :-)
 

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