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Old 03-04-2010, 05:22 PM
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

All problems, which were blocking stabilization of Python 3, have been fixed.
Stabilization of Python 3.1.2 is currently scheduled on 2010-04-19.
I'm attaching the news item for Python 3.1.

--
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
Title: Python 3.1
Author: Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <Arfrever@gentoo.org>
Content-Type: text/plain
Posted: 2010-03-04
Revision: 1
News-Item-Format: 1.0
Display-If-Installed: =dev-lang/python-3.1*

Python 3 is a new major version of Python and is intentionally incompatible
with Python 2. Many external modules have not been ported yet to Python 3, so
currently Python 3.1 should not be set as main active version of Python.
Setting Python 3.1 as main active version of Python is currently unsupported.
When it will change, a separate news item will be created to notify users.

'eselect python COMMAND --python3 [ARGUMENTS]' can be used to manage
configuration of active version of Python 3.

Although Python 3.1 should not be set as main active version of Python, users
should run python-updater after installation of Python 3.1. By default,
modules, which support both Python 2 and Python 3, are installed for both
active version of Python 2 and active version of Python 3, when both Python 2
and Python 3 are installed.

It is recommended to use a UTF-8 locale to avoid potential problems. Especially
C and POSIX locales are discouraged. If locale has not been explicitly set,
then POSIX locale is used, so users should explicitly set locale. Problems
occuring only with non-UTF-8 locales should be reported directly to upstream
developers of given packages.
 
Old 03-04-2010, 05:38 PM
"Paweł Hajdan, Jr."
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On 3/4/10 7:22 PM, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
> Setting Python 3.1 as main active version of Python is currently unsupported.
> When it will change, a separate news item will be created to notify users.

I'd suggest s/users/you

> 'eselect python COMMAND --python3 [ARGUMENTS]' can be used to manage
> configuration of active version of Python 3.

I'm confused by the above paragraph. I had to spend a longer while to
see that it really means "if you want to use eselect-python to manage
your python3 configuration, pass the --python3 switch". Before that I
wondered what is the meaning of COMMAND and ARGUMENTS. Would be nice to
make it more clear.

> Although Python 3.1 should not be set as main active version of Python, users
> should run python-updater after installation of Python 3.1. By default,

Again, IMHO s/users/you, or "please run".

> It is recommended to use a UTF-8 locale to avoid potential problems. Especially

Link to the UTF-8 guide please?

> C and POSIX locales are discouraged. If locale has not been explicitly set,
> then POSIX locale is used, so users should explicitly set locale. Problems

I'd suggest s/users/you, or maybe "make sure you have set locale".

> occuring only with non-UTF-8 locales should be reported directly to upstream

nit: occuring -> occurring

Paweł Hajdan jr
 
Old 03-04-2010, 08:16 PM
Sebastian Pipping
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On 03/04/10 19:22, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
> All problems, which were blocking stabilization of Python 3, have been fixed.
> Stabilization of Python 3.1.2 is currently scheduled on 2010-04-19.

#python on Freenode still reads "It's too early to use Python 3.x".
Are they wrong?

Are we at a point already where we can feed 90% of the Python 2.x code
out there to Python 3 without problems?

Has QA given their blessing to this?


Personally I want "yes" three times to see you continue with Python 3
stabilization.



Sebastian
 
Old 03-04-2010, 08:43 PM
Dirkjan Ochtman
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 22:16, Sebastian Pipping <sping@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Are we at a point already where we can feed 90% of the Python 2.x code
> out there to Python 3 without problems?

No, and that point will never come, but this is not a problem right now.

Python 3 will be installed slotted, as an extra version, and it will
not disturb the Python 2.x versions or any packages that don't work on
3.x (which are marked as such). I have this working on a bunch of
boxes, and it hasn't caused me any problems so far.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
 
Old 03-04-2010, 09:56 PM
Ben de Groot
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On 4 March 2010 22:16, Sebastian Pipping <sping@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 03/04/10 19:22, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
>> All problems, which were blocking stabilization of Python 3, have been fixed.
>> Stabilization of Python 3.1.2 is currently scheduled on 2010-04-19.
>
> #python on Freenode still reads "It's too early to use Python 3.x".
> Are they wrong?

No, they are not wrong. Python 3 is useless for most users. At best
it wastes resources by installing extra python-3 versions of packages
that will never be used because python-2 is the default interpreter,
and they have nothing that really needs python-3. It will also result
in needless runs of python-updater. And it may result in breakage
specific to python-3 which users would not run into if they had only
version 2.x installed.

We need some mechanism to prevent installation of python-3 on
systems of unsuspecting users, and make sure it only gets installed
when the user explicitly chooses to do so. Personally I am
recommending people to locally mask python-3*. I think we should
consider to add it to our package.mask, unless we can find some
other solution.

I am not against it being marked stable, but I am against having
it pulled in on systems that don't need it.

Cheers,
--
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
__________________________________________________ ____
 
Old 03-05-2010, 03:59 AM
Duncan
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

Ben de Groot posted on Thu, 04 Mar 2010 23:56:46 +0100 as excerpted:

> Personally I am recommending people to locally mask python-3*. I think
> we should consider to add it to our package.mask, unless we can find
> some other solution.
>
> I am not against it being marked stable, but I am against having it
> pulled in on systems that don't need it.

++

I've package masked python3 here. There are some things I like being
leading, even bleeding edge on. Python isn't one of them. When some
package I want to merge wants python-3 and isn't going to take python-2
(or if I decide I want to learn python, since one might as well learn 3 at
this point if they're learning), /then/ I'll consider unmasking it. Until
then, or at least for quite some time yet if that doesn't happen, there's
no reason I need the additional complications of python-3 problems on my
system.

I'd say the same goes for most users.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
 
Old 03-05-2010, 07:25 AM
Joshua Saddler
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On Thu, 4 Mar 2010 19:22:41 +0100
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis <Arfrever@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Python 3 is a new major version of Python and is intentionally incompatible
> with Python 2. Many external modules have not been ported yet to Python 3, so
> currently Python 3.1 should not be set as main active version of Python.
> Setting Python 3.1 as main active version of Python is currently unsupported.
> When it will change, a separate news item will be created to notify users.

So nothing uses it yet, and it's completely incompatible with 90% of the numerous python/pygtk apps already on my system, so it'll just sit there, SLOTted, doing nothing but taking up more space on my very limited SSD, while Python 2.6 is the version that's actually in use by every single app.

> Currently Python 3.1 should *NOT* be set as [the] main active version of
> Python.
(emphasis and grammar fix mine)

So . . . why the heck are you stabilizing it?

Please don't spam me or the other users by sticking us with a useless new version. Leave it in ~arch -- it's not at all necessary to force the upgrade by stabilizing it.

We're completely dependent on the hundreds of upstream Python-coded projects to switch on their timetable. Forcing a useless Python version to be the default in Gento doesn't force *them* to write 3.x-compatible code.
 
Old 03-05-2010, 08:10 AM
Dirkjan Ochtman
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 09:25, Joshua Saddler <nightmorph@gentoo.org> wrote:
> So . . . why the heck are you stabilizing it?

Because 'stable' denotes that it works as intended, that it can be
installed easily, etc. All of these are true now for python3. There
are applications being written for it. We want to package those too.
I'm fine with people masking it, and maybe we should make that easier
somehow, but 3.x should definitely be stable.

> We're completely dependent on the hundreds of upstream Python-coded projects to switch on their timetable. Forcing a useless Python version to be the default in Gento doesn't force *them* to write 3.x-compatible code.

It will *NOT* under this proposal be the default. Please formulate
more carefully if you want to make an argument.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
 
Old 03-05-2010, 08:41 AM
Joshua Saddler
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 10:10:00 +0100
Dirkjan Ochtman <djc@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Because 'stable' denotes that it works as intended, that it can be
> installed easily, etc. All of these are true now for python3. There
> are applications being written for it. We want to package those too.
> I'm fine with people masking it, and maybe we should make that easier
> somehow, but 3.x should definitely be stable.

It does *not* work as intended.

Here, since your selective quoting missed every point I made, lemme make 'em again:

>> Python 3 is a new major version of Python and is intentionally incompatible
>> with Python 2. Many external modules have not been ported yet to Python 3, so
>> currently Python 3.1 should not be set as main active version of Python.
>> Setting Python 3.1 as main active version of Python is currently unsupported.
>> When it will change, a separate news item will be created to notify users.

>So nothing uses it yet, and it's completely incompatible with 90% of the
>numerous python/pygtk apps already on my system, so it'll just sit there,
>SLOTted, doing nothing but taking up more space on my very limited SSD, while
>Python 2.6 is the version that's actually in use by every single app.

Like I said before, like it says *in the news item*, "stuff does not work with it." How does that qualify as "works as intended" when it will not work with all my packages that use Python?

If you believe stabilizing a package should be done in a vacuum, in an idealized world where no other package cares about another, then congrats, you're on the right track.

>> Currently Python 3.1 should *NOT* be set as [the] main active version of
>> Python.

This is in the friggin' news item itself. If it should not be used, then don't force stable users to install it.

> It will *NOT* under this proposal be the default. Please formulate
> more carefully if you want to make an argument.

If it's stable, then users get it by default, assuming they run the stable tree. They install a recent stage3, build their system, run emerge -uD world. Bam, a useless version of Python is now installed. Nothing on their systems will use it, so it's bloat.

> but 3.x should definitely be stable

No one has said yet why this is. So . . . direct question, gimme a direct answer: why?
 
Old 03-05-2010, 08:56 AM
Dirkjan Ochtman
 
Default Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 10:41, Joshua Saddler <nightmorph@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> Python 3 is a new major version of Python and is intentionally incompatible
>>> with Python 2. Many external modules have not been ported yet to Python 3, so
>>> currently Python 3.1 should not be set as main active version of Python.
>>> Setting Python 3.1 as main active version of Python is currently unsupported.
>>> When it will change, a separate news item will be created to notify users.
>
>>So nothing uses it yet, and it's completely incompatible with 90% of the
>>numerous python/pygtk apps already on my system, so it'll just sit there,
>>SLOTted, doing nothing but taking up more space on my very limited SSD, while
>>Python 2.6 is the version that's actually in use by every single app.
>
> Like I said before, like it says *in the news item*, "stuff does not work with it." How does that qualify as "works as intended" when it will not work with all my packages that use Python?

Because it's a frigging major revision that breaks some backwards compatibility!

>>> Currently Python 3.1 should *NOT* be set as [the] main active version of
>>> Python.
>
> This is in the friggin' news item itself. If it should not be used, then don't force stable users to install it.

I don't want to force stable users to install it. I *do* however want
to install it as part of the stable tree on some of my servers. And I
don't think it's sensible that I have to force it to be stable
somehow, I want my packagers to say, hey, we checked this and it
should just work (for the intended purpose, which is NOT running code
written for python2).

> If it's stable, then users get it by default, assuming they run the stable tree. They install a recent stage3, build their system, run emerge -uD world. Bam, a useless version of Python is now installed. Nothing on their systems will use it, so it's bloat.

I agree that that's bad, but I do not agree that not stabilizing it is
the right solution.

> No one has said yet why this is. So . . . direct question, gimme a direct answer: why?

Because in my opinion stable means that the people who package this
are stating that hey, we did some testing with this, it works with all
of the other packages you have installed that want to use it. It does
not mean everyone should have it installed, which is what it appears
you think it means.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
 

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