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Old 02-08-2010, 11:10 AM
Mike Frysinger
 
Default "X" vs "gtk" USE flags

On Monday 08 February 2010 06:15:38 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> A lot of ebuilds seem to ignore the "X" USE flag and instead only have
> "gtk", "qt" and the like. This should be declared absolutely wrong,
> IMHO. When a program provides a command-line tool and a GUI tool, and
> the GUI tool uses only one toolkit, then the USE flag should be "X".
> "gtk" vs "qt" vs "fltk" etc should be used only in cases where a program
> can be built with either of those toolkits.

tell that to all the devices that use GTK/QT/FLTK w/out X11 on raw frame
buffers. USE=X is not a dumping grounds for "GUIs". it's for controlling X11
dependencies plain and simple.
-mike
 
Old 02-08-2010, 11:11 AM
Christian Faulhammer
 
Default "X" vs "gtk" USE flags

Hi,

Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@arcor.de>:
> A Gnome user probably has "X gtk -qt" in make.conf, while a KDE user
> has "X qt -gtk" in hope to have programs that support both Gtk and Qt
> being built with the toolkit that is more native to his DE. When a
> package has a GUI tool that is able to only use one of those
> toolkits, people who have it disabled in make.conf will get no GUI
> tool at all even though they have "X" in their USE flags.

Your proposal does not look to appealing to me. What about people
trying to keep "pollution" down and avoid one or the other toolkit?

V-Li

--
Christian Faulhammer, Gentoo Lisp project
<URL:http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-lisp on FreeNode

<URL:http://gentoo.faulhammer.org/>
 
Old 02-08-2010, 11:12 AM
Nikos Chantziaras
 
Default "X" vs "gtk" USE flags

On 02/08/2010 01:36 PM, AllenJB wrote:

On 08/02/10 11:15, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:

Hello. Please don't be too harsh if I got this wrong or if this looks
like whining :P

A lot of ebuilds seem to ignore the "X" USE flag and instead only have
"gtk", "qt" and the like. This should be declared absolutely wrong,
IMHO. When a program provides a command-line tool and a GUI tool, and
the GUI tool uses only one toolkit, then the USE flag should be "X".
[...]


I don't see that either system makes particularly more sense than the
other.

The only situation that comes immediately to mind is: Under the current
system, if packages add or remove support for multiple toolkits, the
changes are trivial, but under your system it would invoke shuffling use
flags around (which could easily affect dependencies in other packages).
It would also not be immediately clear which toolkits support has been
added/removed under the proposed system (since a package would go from,
for example, having use flags "gtk kde" to just "X").


If it would be problematic for a package to switch to "X" then of course
it might be better to leave it as-is. But most of the time, the
programs in question only state "gtk" or "fltk" in them, even though Gtk
is not optional at all. A perfect example here is media-video/xvattr.
If you don't set the "gtk" USE flag, then you don't get the graphical
tool at all, only the command line tool.


So in other words what I propose a bit more sanity, not some iron claw
that hangs above the developer's heads. The situation right now is
mixed anyway. Many packages use X, many others "gtk" or "fltk". The
"sanity" part in this is simple that a general rule of USE flags is: If
it's *not* optional, don't make it a USE flag. In the case of xvattr
for example, Gtk is not optional if you want the X utility.
 
Old 02-08-2010, 11:16 AM
Samuli Suominen
 
Default "X" vs "gtk" USE flags

On 02/08/2010 02:12 PM, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> On 02/08/2010 01:36 PM, AllenJB wrote:
>> On 08/02/10 11:15, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>>> Hello. Please don't be too harsh if I got this wrong or if this looks
>>> like whining :P
>>>
>>> A lot of ebuilds seem to ignore the "X" USE flag and instead only have
>>> "gtk", "qt" and the like. This should be declared absolutely wrong,
>>> IMHO. When a program provides a command-line tool and a GUI tool, and
>>> the GUI tool uses only one toolkit, then the USE flag should be "X".
>>> [...]
>>>
>> I don't see that either system makes particularly more sense than the
>> other.
>>
>> The only situation that comes immediately to mind is: Under the current
>> system, if packages add or remove support for multiple toolkits, the
>> changes are trivial, but under your system it would invoke shuffling use
>> flags around (which could easily affect dependencies in other packages).
>> It would also not be immediately clear which toolkits support has been
>> added/removed under the proposed system (since a package would go from,
>> for example, having use flags "gtk kde" to just "X").
>
> If it would be problematic for a package to switch to "X" then of course
> it might be better to leave it as-is. But most of the time, the
> programs in question only state "gtk" or "fltk" in them, even though Gtk
> is not optional at all. A perfect example here is media-video/xvattr.
> If you don't set the "gtk" USE flag, then you don't get the graphical
> tool at all, only the command line tool.

Very bad example.

That's what people want: xvattr is used on headless VDR multimedia
HTPC's, and VDR doesn't need toolkits like GTK+ installed.
 
Old 02-08-2010, 11:32 AM
Nikos Chantziaras
 
Default "X" vs "gtk" USE flags

On 02/08/2010 01:39 PM, Samuli Suominen wrote:

On 02/08/2010 01:30 PM, Tomáš Chvátal wrote:

Dne 8.2.2010 12:15, Nikos Chantziaras napsal(a):

Hello. Please don't be too harsh if I got this wrong or if this looks
like whining :P



A lot of ebuilds seem to ignore the "X" USE flag and instead only have
"gtk", "qt" and the like. This should be declared absolutely wrong,
IMHO. When a program provides a command-line tool and a GUI tool, and
the GUI tool uses only one toolkit, then the USE flag should be "X".
"gtk" vs "qt" vs "fltk" etc should be used only in cases where a program
can be built with either of those toolkits. When there's only one
choice, then this doesn't make sense. Isn't this what the "X" USE flag
is there for in the first place? Having a package where, say, Gtk is
*not* optional having a "gtk" USE flag doesn't make sense. The X tool
of that package is optional, but Gtk is not optional for the X tool.



A Gnome user probably has "X gtk -qt" in make.conf, while a KDE user has
"X qt -gtk" in hope to have programs that support both Gtk and Qt being
built with the toolkit that is more native to his DE. When a package
has a GUI tool that is able to only use one of those toolkits, people
who have it disabled in make.conf will get no GUI tool at all even
though they have "X" in their USE flags.



I hope I was able to explain the problem (as I see it) correctly :P If
people agree with me, it might be a good idea for maintainers of
packages that behave like that to start using "X" as the USE flag that
controls building of the packages GUI tools.



Sounds sane. For correct usage lately the mplayer ebuild was rewritten
this way.

Might be good idea to open tracker for these and all bugs cced to it. So
interested persons can fix it.

Note for maintainers: qa bugs are considered as issue when adding new
packages. In longer perspective it is good to have them fixed, but you
don't have to proactively fix old packages. Writing this before people
starts complaining we are again filling lots of bugs.

@qa: any objections against me opening the tracker?

To sum up the issue:
use X wrap all other widget useflags if there is CLI interface
available, so if user don't want X usage for package he just set -X and
rest widget flags don't matter at all.

Tomas


IMHO. USE="X" is for controlling X.org dependencies, not for avoiding
everything that deps on them, so I disagree.


I was under the impression that USE flags are for enabling/disabling
features, not for controlling deps. DEPEND and RDEPEND is, AFAIK, the
way to control deps.
 
Old 02-08-2010, 11:34 AM
Nikos Chantziaras
 
Default "X" vs "gtk" USE flags

On 02/08/2010 02:11 PM, Christian Faulhammer wrote:

Hi,

Nikos Chantziaras<realnc@arcor.de>:

A Gnome user probably has "X gtk -qt" in make.conf, while a KDE user
has "X qt -gtk" in hope to have programs that support both Gtk and Qt
being built with the toolkit that is more native to his DE. When a
package has a GUI tool that is able to only use one of those
toolkits, people who have it disabled in make.conf will get no GUI
tool at all even though they have "X" in their USE flags.


Your proposal does not look to appealing to me. What about people
trying to keep "pollution" down and avoid one or the other toolkit?


This would mean that we favor one group of people over another :P
 
Old 02-08-2010, 11:38 AM
Nikos Chantziaras
 
Default "X" vs "gtk" USE flags

On 02/08/2010 02:16 PM, Samuli Suominen wrote:

On 02/08/2010 02:12 PM, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:

On 02/08/2010 01:36 PM, AllenJB wrote:

On 08/02/10 11:15, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:

Hello. Please don't be too harsh if I got this wrong or if this looks
like whining :P

A lot of ebuilds seem to ignore the "X" USE flag and instead only have
"gtk", "qt" and the like. This should be declared absolutely wrong,
IMHO. When a program provides a command-line tool and a GUI tool, and
the GUI tool uses only one toolkit, then the USE flag should be "X".
[...]


I don't see that either system makes particularly more sense than the
other.

The only situation that comes immediately to mind is: Under the current
system, if packages add or remove support for multiple toolkits, the
changes are trivial, but under your system it would invoke shuffling use
flags around (which could easily affect dependencies in other packages).
It would also not be immediately clear which toolkits support has been
added/removed under the proposed system (since a package would go from,
for example, having use flags "gtk kde" to just "X").


If it would be problematic for a package to switch to "X" then of course
it might be better to leave it as-is. But most of the time, the
programs in question only state "gtk" or "fltk" in them, even though Gtk
is not optional at all. A perfect example here is media-video/xvattr.
If you don't set the "gtk" USE flag, then you don't get the graphical
tool at all, only the command line tool.


Very bad example.

That's what people want: xvattr is used on headless VDR multimedia
HTPC's, and VDR doesn't need toolkits like GTK+ installed.


So which should be preffered? VDR people putting "media-video/xvattr
-X" or desktop people putting "media-video/xvattr +gtk"?


Btw, I use xvattr and I don't have a VDR HTPC or anything like that.
 
Old 02-08-2010, 12:41 PM
AllenJB
 
Default "X" vs "gtk" USE flags

On 08/02/10 12:32, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> On 02/08/2010 01:39 PM, Samuli Suominen wrote:
>> IMHO. USE="X" is for controlling X.org dependencies, not for avoiding
>> everything that deps on them, so I disagree.
>
> I was under the impression that USE flags are for enabling/disabling
> features, not for controlling deps. DEPEND and RDEPEND is, AFAIK, the
> way to control deps.
>
>
Features influence dependencies. If you enable kde features the package
will require kde dependencies. So use flags and dependencies are
irrevocably linked.

What Samuli is saying is that the X flag should be specifically for X
(and not X-related, such as graphical libraries) features, while the kde
and gtk use flags should remain in use as they are. This way when you
see "X" as a use flag, you know it means "enable X features" and isn't
likely to pull in anything but X libraries, if you see "kde" you know it
means "enable kde features" and isn't likely to pull in anything but kde
libraries, and so on.

AllenJB
 
Old 02-08-2010, 01:02 PM
Nikos Chantziaras
 
Default "X" vs "gtk" USE flags

On 02/08/2010 03:41 PM, AllenJB wrote:

On 08/02/10 12:32, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:

On 02/08/2010 01:39 PM, Samuli Suominen wrote:

IMHO. USE="X" is for controlling X.org dependencies, not for avoiding
everything that deps on them, so I disagree.


I was under the impression that USE flags are for enabling/disabling
features, not for controlling deps. DEPEND and RDEPEND is, AFAIK, the
way to control deps.



Features influence dependencies. If you enable kde features the package
will require kde dependencies. So use flags and dependencies are
irrevocably linked.

What Samuli is saying is that the X flag should be specifically for X
(and not X-related, such as graphical libraries) features, while the kde
and gtk use flags should remain in use as they are. This way when you
see "X" as a use flag, you know it means "enable X features" and isn't
likely to pull in anything but X libraries, if you see "kde" you know it
means "enable kde features" and isn't likely to pull in anything but kde
libraries, and so on.


So I guess what I was really proposing then was a "gui" USE flag :P
Sorry about that, I didn't fully understand the meaning of the X flag.
 
Old 02-08-2010, 02:22 PM
AllenJB
 
Default "X" vs "gtk" USE flags

On 08/02/10 14:02, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> On 02/08/2010 03:41 PM, AllenJB wrote:
>> On 08/02/10 12:32, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>>> On 02/08/2010 01:39 PM, Samuli Suominen wrote:
>>>> IMHO. USE="X" is for controlling X.org dependencies, not for avoiding
>>>> everything that deps on them, so I disagree.
>>>
>>> I was under the impression that USE flags are for enabling/disabling
>>> features, not for controlling deps. DEPEND and RDEPEND is, AFAIK, the
>>> way to control deps.
>>>
>>>
>> Features influence dependencies. If you enable kde features the package
>> will require kde dependencies. So use flags and dependencies are
>> irrevocably linked.
>>
>> What Samuli is saying is that the X flag should be specifically for X
>> (and not X-related, such as graphical libraries) features, while the kde
>> and gtk use flags should remain in use as they are. This way when you
>> see "X" as a use flag, you know it means "enable X features" and isn't
>> likely to pull in anything but X libraries, if you see "kde" you know it
>> means "enable kde features" and isn't likely to pull in anything but kde
>> libraries, and so on.
>
> So I guess what I was really proposing then was a "gui" USE flag :P
> Sorry about that, I didn't fully understand the meaning of the X flag.
>
>
And what purpose would this flag server that's not already covered by
using USE="X fltk qt gtk kde gnome" (and possibly a couple of others
I've forgotten about) - which are all already in the desktop profile,
which the vast majority of people who don't care what toolkit they get
will already be using anyway?

The current system caters perfectly for both people who want to avoid
specific toolkits and those who don't care what toolkits they use.

AllenJB
 

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