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Old 01-15-2010, 11:36 PM
Ulrich Mueller
 
Default layman storage location (again)

>>>>> On Fri, 15 Jan 2010, Jorge Manuel B S Vicetto wrote:

> - From the alternatives, /var/lib/layman doesn't sound right.

The FHS (which we don't always obey, but in cases like this it's
useful as a guideline) says about /var/lib: "This hierarchy holds
state information pertaining to an application or the system. State
information is data that programs modify while they run, and that
pertains to one specific host."

IMHO that doesn't fit layman's usage case.

> If /var/cache/layman doesn't work,

It doesn't, since the data cannot be locally (i.e. off-line)
regenerated.

> what about /var/spool/layman instead?

Looks like it's the best location available in /var.

But by analogy, layman should store things in the same hierarchy where
the portage tree is, and that is under /usr. What was wrong with the
original location /usr/portage/local?

Ulrich
 
Old 01-16-2010, 12:24 AM
Sebastian Pipping
 
Default layman storage location (again)

On 01/16/10 00:33, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> - From the alternatives, /var/lib/layman doesn't sound right. If
> /var/cache/layman doesn't work, what about /var/spool/layman instead?

Okay, how about

/var/spool/layman

then? Any objections?



Sebastian
 
Old 01-16-2010, 12:45 AM
Mike Frysinger
 
Default layman storage location (again)

On Friday 15 January 2010 20:24:38 Sebastian Pipping wrote:
> On 01/16/10 00:33, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> > - From the alternatives, /var/lib/layman doesn't sound right. If
> > /var/cache/layman doesn't work, what about /var/spool/layman instead?
>
> Okay, how about
>
> /var/spool/layman
>
> then? Any objections?

/var/spool/ is a terrible idea -- these are not jobs being queued waiting to
be processed by a daemon and then removed.

if you want to keep all of layman's stuff together, then about your only
option is to create your own tree at like /var/layman/. the better idea
though would be to split your stuff along the proper lines.

cache files = /var/cache/layman/
config files = /etc/layman/
-mike
 
Old 01-16-2010, 12:55 AM
Sebastian Pipping
 
Default layman storage location (again)

On 01/16/10 02:45, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> if you want to keep all of layman's stuff together, then about your only
> option is to create your own tree at like /var/layman/.

anybody objecting to /var/layman ?


> the better idea
> though would be to split your stuff along the proper lines.
>
> cache files = /var/cache/layman/

as i said: it's not a "normal" cache.



sebastian
 
Old 01-16-2010, 02:07 AM
Duncan
 
Default layman storage location (again)

Mike Frysinger posted on Fri, 15 Jan 2010 20:45:49 -0500 as excerpted:

> On Friday 15 January 2010 20:24:38 Sebastian Pipping wrote:
>> On 01/16/10 00:33, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>> > - From the alternatives, /var/lib/layman doesn't sound right. If
>> > /var/cache/layman doesn't work, what about /var/spool/layman instead?
>>
>> Okay, how about
>>
>> /var/spool/layman
>>
>> then? Any objections?
>
> /var/spool/ is a terrible idea -- these are not jobs being queued
> waiting to be processed by a daemon and then removed.
>
> if you want to keep all of layman's stuff together, then about your only
> option is to create your own tree at like /var/layman/. the better idea
> though would be to split your stuff along the proper lines.
>
> cache files = /var/cache/layman/
> config files = /etc/layman/

This looks pretty good to me, too.

1) Don't mess with /usr/local/, that's reserved for local use.

(FWIW, it's only because I'm lazy and use single-letter "p" for my
portage dirs, that you didn't clash with anything I do, here. But I
/was/ wondering what the layman dir was doing in my local files!)

2) /etc/ (/etc/layman/, or as I use, /etc/portage/layman, but some folks
may not like that) for config, but do keep in mind that some folks keep
/ (and thus /etc) read-only during normal operation. Thus, you can't
properly put your runtime-updated files there.

(It could of course be argued that layman updates should be done with
gentoo tree updates, thus, during package manager updates, which aren't
really normal operation since Gentoo at least depends on / and /etc being
writable for package updates, but then you lose the flexibility of being
able to update layman on its own, during otherwise normal operation.)

3) /var/spool/ isn't right either, because as someone else mentioned,
these aren't files spooled for use by some daemon and then deletion.

4) That leaves some place in /var/cache or /var/lib, or possibly /usr
(taking a cue from Gentoo's default /usr/portage), for your
runtime-updated files.

I don't personally much care which of those are used, but /usr/ itself
may be read-only mounted as well during normal operation (with
/usr/portage/ either on a different mountpoint, or the local gentoo tree
stored elsewhere), so I'd suggest, unless you wish to use
/usr/portage/layman, you don't use /usr/ at all, which leaves /var/lib/
or /var/cache/.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
 
Old 01-16-2010, 03:39 AM
Mike Frysinger
 
Default layman storage location (again)

On Friday 15 January 2010 20:55:18 Sebastian Pipping wrote:
> On 01/16/10 02:45, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > the better idea
> > though would be to split your stuff along the proper lines.
> >
> > cache files = /var/cache/layman/
>
> as i said: it's not a "normal" cache.

you said but didnt explain why it's "special". these are merely caches of
external overlays and xml caches of overlay lists. if people are concerned
with pining a version, then they should be extracting to their own overlay
since a mere sync is going to drop it (just like /usr/portage/). if you want
to call it state data, then it'd be /var/lib/layman/ ...
-mike
 
Old 01-16-2010, 07:12 AM
Peter Volkov
 
Default layman storage location (again)

The bug you mentioned [253725] is not about layman location, it's only
about "keepdir" line. Why don't we fix that and don't change defaults
another time? Such change does more harm for our users then good.

В Сбт, 16/01/2010 в 02:55 +0100, Sebastian Pipping пишет:
> On 01/16/10 02:45, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > if you want to keep all of layman's stuff together, then about your only
> > option is to create your own tree at like /var/layman/.
>
> anybody objecting to /var/layman ?

layman cache is nfs distributable. Also it's good idea to have it close
to PORTDIR. Thus I'd like to keep it somewhere at /usr.

It's just impossible to choose perfect location that suits all needs and
it should stay user-configurable. So again, do not change this default
we no real need another time, please.

--
Peter.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 10:11 AM
Lars Wendler
 
Default layman storage location (again)

> It's just impossible to choose perfect location that suits all needs and
> it should stay user-configurable. So again, do not change this default
> we no real need another time, please.

/usr/local is a bad choice for an ebuild-generated default. Like I said in bug
#253725 I don't want ebuilds to mess with stuff in /usr/local. So either remove
this default completely and let the user decide when setting up layman or move
it around.
The best suggestions I've read here for now were either /var/layman or
/usr/layman which I would have no problem with.

--
Lars Wendler (Polynomial-C)
Gentoo Staffer and bug-wrangler
 
Old 01-16-2010, 10:17 AM
Fabian Groffen
 
Default layman storage location (again)

On 15-01-2010 20:36:20 +0100, Sebastian Pipping wrote:
> I would like to get it right with the next switch.
> Would
>
> /var/lib/layman
>
> do well? /var/cache/layman seems inadequate as it might not be
> regenerated [2] without losses (as upstream moves along).
>
> Would be great to hear a few opinions. Thanks!

How about storing it in DISTDIR (like metadata.xml)? Or storing it
somewhere in the rsync image? That would maybe make sense when Portage
takes over layman's functionality in the future.


--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level
 
Old 01-16-2010, 10:46 AM
Nirbheek Chauhan
 
Default layman storage location (again)

On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Lars Wendler <polynomial-c@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> It's just impossible to choose perfect location that suits all needs and
>> it should stay user-configurable. So again, do not change this default
>> we no real need another time, please.
>
> /usr/local is a bad choice for an ebuild-generated default. Like I said in bug
> #253725 I don't want ebuilds to mess with stuff in /usr/local. So either remove
> this default completely and let the user decide when setting up layman or move
> it around.
> The best suggestions I've read here for now were either /var/layman or
> /usr/layman which I would have no problem with.
>

/me throws in /usr/share/layman

OTOH, I really think /usr/local/layman is OK as long as it's
runtime-generated and not added by the ebuild. That should satisfy bug
253725, and prevent another painful location move. It also makes sense
from the "/usr/local is user/admin domain" since only running the
layman tool will cause those directories to be created.


--
~Nirbheek Chauhan

Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team
 

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