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Old 01-12-2010, 05:01 PM
Richard Freeman
 
Default Last rites: net-nntp/inn

On 01/11/2010 10:43 PM, Jeremy Olexa wrote:

(A general reply, not targeted towards you, Rich)


No prob - my post wasn't really directed personally at anybody.



Speaking on behalf of the treecleaners:
The fact is, some of us have never heard of "inn" and until Gentoo has
some sort of "popularity tracking" software/tool, the treecleaners will
continue to mask unmaintained software.


Yikes - just goes to show how NNTP is starting to fade into the past.

I'm not sure if it would cause undue overhead, but perhaps a solution
would be to:


1. Open a bug stating that the package will be discarded - assign to
the maintainer. This gives the maintainer a chance to wake up. You can
even do this without having to try to contact them first which might
save you a step if you're doing that now.


2. Periodically post a list of packages that have said bugs logged for
more than two weeks on -dev-announce - reference the bug number. That
gives the community at large a chance to pick up the package.


3. In another two weeks, if some dev hasn't stepped in to maintain,
then mask as usual. Don't announce this since anybody who cares should
have CC'ed themselves on the bug.


4. Of course, security issues / etc take priority and appropriate
action is taken quickly (try to find a maintainer, but mask otherwise).


I'd think that if you tagged bugs appropriately you could largely
automate #2 and #3 - just query for bugs over a certain age with a given
keyword or whatever.


This would probably lengthen the time needed to get rid of a package,
but it wouldn't really increase the work needed by too much. You
already announce on the list that you're masking packages - now you'd
announce two weeks earlier and skip the announcement when the mask is made.


This is just a suggestion, but it does eliminate the need to try to make
judgment calls about whether a given package is or isn't "important."


Rich
 
Old 01-12-2010, 05:21 PM
Jeroen Roovers
 
Default Last rites: net-nntp/inn

On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 18:32:06 +0200
Markos Chandras <hwoarang@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Thanks for saving this package. As Jeremy said, there is absolutely
> no way to measure the popularity of a package. So if it has no
> maintainer, and open bugs we have to mask it and announce it here. It
> is up to you whether you want to save it or not

I don't think the (perceived) popularity of the package has anything to
do with it.

I do think maybe treecleaner@ needs to set up policies with regard to
methods of investigation, thoroughness, and transparency. In the case
at hand, treecleaner shouldn't have been called in (you're not the
bloody cavalry you know! ;-) in the first place, and should certainly
not have acted (so quickly).

It's not clear to me generally what you (treecleaner@) all do and why
you do it - but it *is* clear that it's very easy to `rm -r *' to get
rid of some old stuff and that you may end up regretting it later.

Particularly, it looks like the net-mail, net-news and netmon herds are
understaffed and have been for a while, and I see a general shift of
developers towards desktop oriented packages and away from the nuts and
bolts that make it all go.

I think (but have no facts apart from talking to people and handling
network package related bugs in every way possible) that our userbase
is still much more technically oriented. If that's all true, then doing
some `rm net-*/*' cleanups may well end up hurting Gentoo as you would
drive out more of the networking oriented people (users and developers)
that I feel we still need to support, and turn into Yet Another Desktop
Oriented Distro (which we also need, but that's already covered quite
well).

ISTR treecleaner@ already had some policy in place that requires some
$period to pass before you mask for removal. Maybe you should announce
an upcoming mask nice and early to keep that shock wave from reaching
users straight away.


Regards,
jer
 
Old 01-12-2010, 05:30 PM
Markos Chandras
 
Default Last rites: net-nntp/inn

On Tuesday 12 January 2010 20:21:59 Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 18:32:06 +0200
>
> Markos Chandras <hwoarang@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Thanks for saving this package. As Jeremy said, there is absolutely
> > no way to measure the popularity of a package. So if it has no
> > maintainer, and open bugs we have to mask it and announce it here. It
> > is up to you whether you want to save it or not
>
> I don't think the (perceived) popularity of the package has anything to
> do with it.
>
> I do think maybe treecleaner@ needs to set up policies with regard to
> methods of investigation, thoroughness, and transparency. In the case
> at hand, treecleaner shouldn't have been called in (you're not the
> bloody cavalry you know! ;-) in the first place, and should certainly
> not have acted (so quickly).
>
> It's not clear to me generally what you (treecleaner@) all do and why
> you do it - but it *is* clear that it's very easy to `rm -r *' to get
> rid of some old stuff and that you may end up regretting it later.
>
> Particularly, it looks like the net-mail, net-news and netmon herds are
> understaffed and have been for a while, and I see a general shift of
> developers towards desktop oriented packages and away from the nuts and
> bolts that make it all go.
>
> I think (but have no facts apart from talking to people and handling
> network package related bugs in every way possible) that our userbase
> is still much more technically oriented. If that's all true, then doing
> some `rm net-*/*' cleanups may well end up hurting Gentoo as you would
> drive out more of the networking oriented people (users and developers)
> that I feel we still need to support, and turn into Yet Another Desktop
> Oriented Distro (which we also need, but that's already covered quite
> well).
So what do you suggest? Have old, unmaintained and broken ( or forgotten )
packages under those categories in order to preserve the "personality" of
Gentoo? IMHO ( this is not a treecleaners@ opinion, i m just talking for my
self ), announcing and masking a package is a good way to inform and wake up
everybody to take care of this package if they really really want to stay on
portage. Having broken and unmaintained packages on tree, just to say that we
have plenty of packages on portage is not acceptable policy imho. So if you
want a package, plz take care of it
>
> ISTR treecleaner@ already had some policy in place that requires some
> $period to pass before you mask for removal. Maybe you should announce
> an upcoming mask nice and early to keep that shock wave from reaching
> users straight away.
Having open bugs for months isn't a way to let everybody know that this
package is broken for long time, so it is a valid candidate for removal?
Should we send that via e-mail as well?
>
>
> Regards,
> jer
>

--
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org
 
Old 01-12-2010, 06:07 PM
Richard Freeman
 
Default Last rites: net-nntp/inn

On 01/12/2010 01:30 PM, Markos Chandras wrote:

IMHO ( this is not a treecleaners@ opinion, i m just talking for my
self ), announcing and masking a package is a good way to inform and wake up
everybody to take care of this package if they really really want to stay on
portage.


I agree with the announce part, and the THREAT of masking. I just don't
think that the masking should happen at the same time as the announcement.



Having open bugs for months isn't a way to let everybody know that this
package is broken for long time, so it is a valid candidate for removal?
Should we send that via e-mail as well?


I don't think an open bug constitutes notice. It is valid notice to the
maintainer of the package, but not to the larger community.


I probably have 100-200 packages installed, and I'd probably be annoyed
if any of them went away (I'm still missing kdirstat, but that isn't
really the kde team's fault). If an important one was about to go away
I might step in to maintain it, and I'm sure a lot of other people feel
the same way. At the same time, I can't monitor the bugs on 100-200
packages - that is the reason for having a maintainer.


I think the concern is that some maintainers don't respond in a timely
manner. Now, I don't know that maintainers have an obligation to fix
every bug within a certain timeframe - some packages are problematic and
I'm not sure that we should discard a 98% solution in favor of a 0% one
because we don't have a 100% one. However, serious issues should be in
scope for treecleaners, but the first goal should be to find a
maintainer, and only if that fails should we consider masking.


Also - if a maintainer can't be found we might also try to coordinate
with the Sunrise folks to see if they're willing to take it over.


We should also solicit proxy-maintainers among the user community when
we announce pending removals. That could be very helpful with something
like inn: I use it VERY lightly and I'm not a news guru, but I am a
dev. I bet we have users who are news gurus and who care about inn, but
they aren't Gentoo devs. Together we could probably cover the gaps and
I'm sure devs would be more willing to pick up a package if they knew
they had some help with the nuances of the package itself. If that
falls apart later, at least an active dev is assigned to the package,
and they can always decide to try to find a new maintainer or kill the
package (saving treecleaners the work of doing so).


In short - treecleaners should be about getting packages back into the
mainstream maintenance model, with removal being the fallback option if
that doesn't work. They shouldn't have to go out of their way to do
this, but an advance announcement and some coordination is probably a
good idea.


Rich
 
Old 01-12-2010, 06:40 PM
Arnaud Launay
 
Default Last rites: net-nntp/inn

Le Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 08:30:26PM +0200, Markos Chandras a ťcrit:
> So if you want a package, plz take care of it

From a "user" point of view, having submitted ebuilds, patches
ideas and questions here and there on bugs.go, I must admit I end
up putting up my "contributions" on my local /usr/local/portage
because it never makes it to the official tree.

I love Gentoo, but sometimes I feel like I'm using a debian stable

I do not say everything should be bloody-edge at all times, but
as a hoster, I use a lot of those so-called "servers" -- apache,
mysql, cyrus-imapd, inn, postfix, amavisd, maia (which has a
working, if not perfect, ebuild standing in bugs.go for years now
-- #130068 -- and which is in "maintainer-needed" status), etc) ,
and I have to put them under our local tree to use them.

For example, I've one for pondus, a very small gnome app which
tracks your weight... I never bothered submitting it to bgo.

I wonder how much time flies before users begin to stop posting
their corrections to bugs.go and keep them local, because they
never get committed.

I agree that some management is needed, but I feel like it's
becoming more and more complicated to participate in the project
-- either you have to write a document showing you understand how
the management works (why should I care ? I just want to add a
patch), either your patch/ebuild is "ignored" for years.

It might not be the case for every herd, though.

It seems to me it was easier to participate in 2004...

BTW, I'm not looking to troll here, so please: no flamewar. It's
just my humble opinion, I don't want to get people mad, and I can
very much be completely wrong.

Arnaud.
 
Old 01-12-2010, 06:49 PM
Markos Chandras
 
Default Last rites: net-nntp/inn

On Tuesday 12 January 2010 21:40:37 Arnaud Launay wrote:
> Le Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 08:30:26PM +0200, Markos Chandras a ťcrit:
> > So if you want a package, plz take care of it
>
> From a "user" point of view, having submitted ebuilds, patches
> ideas and questions here and there on bugs.go, I must admit I end
> up putting up my "contributions" on my local /usr/local/portage
> because it never makes it to the official tree.
>
> I love Gentoo, but sometimes I feel like I'm using a debian stable
>
> I do not say everything should be bloody-edge at all times, but
> as a hoster, I use a lot of those so-called "servers" -- apache,
> mysql, cyrus-imapd, inn, postfix, amavisd, maia (which has a
> working, if not perfect, ebuild standing in bugs.go for years now
> -- #130068 -- and which is in "maintainer-needed" status), etc) ,
> and I have to put them under our local tree to use them.
>
If you feel like it, become a proxy-maintainer and poke a developer to put
your ebuilds on tree. Have you ever heard of that ?
> For example, I've one for pondus, a very small gnome app which
> tracks your weight... I never bothered submitting it to bgo.
>
Same rule applies here
> I wonder how much time flies before users begin to stop posting
> their corrections to bugs.go and keep them local, because they
> never get committed.

> Arnaud.
>

--
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org
 
Old 01-12-2010, 07:31 PM
Mike Frysinger
 
Default Last rites: net-nntp/inn

On Monday 11 January 2010 20:00:40 Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:31:08 -0500 Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > On Monday 11 January 2010 16:05:16 Markos Chandras wrote:
> > > # Markos Chandras <hwoarang@gentoo.org> (11 Jan 2010)
> > > # Fails with -Wl,--as-needed
> > > # bug #182782. Removal in 30 days
> > > net-nntp/inn
> >
> > is as-needed support really a valid reason for punting a package ? i
> > dont think it is.
>
> Bad research - he simply lists the wrong reason. Lack of maintainer
> attention would have been a better description.

which is still not a good enough reason for removal if the version in the tree
still works
-mike
 
Old 01-12-2010, 07:33 PM
Mike Frysinger
 
Default Last rites: net-nntp/inn

On Monday 11 January 2010 22:43:18 Jeremy Olexa wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 20:36:37 -0500, Richard Freeman wrote:
> > On 01/11/2010 06:30 PM, Arnaud Launay wrote:
> >> As a newsmaster, I'm a bit concerned by this.
> >
> > Yeah, inn seems like a really high-profile package to mask for removal.
> > It would be conspicuous in its absence.
> >
> > Would it make sense to post on -dev BEFORE masking packages like this?
> > I'm sure there are lots of people who would chip in before something
> > like this dies.
>
> (A general reply, not targeted towards you, Rich)
>
> Speaking on behalf of the treecleaners:
> The fact is, some of us have never heard of "inn" and until Gentoo has
> some sort of "popularity tracking" software/tool, the treecleaners will
> continue to mask unmaintained software. We can't possible know about every
> package in the tree and if it looks like it is unmaintained (open bugs w/o
> action) then we will mask it for removal unless someone fixes it and
> maintains it.

you need to fix your filter then. an "open bug" is not an acceptable reason
for masking a package. if you're going to clean a package, you need to
research actual reasons to mask & punt.
-mike
 
Old 01-12-2010, 07:35 PM
Ben de Groot
 
Default Last rites: net-nntp/inn

2010/1/12 Markos Chandras <hwoarang@gentoo.org>:
> If you feel like it, become a proxy-maintainer and poke a developer to put
> your ebuilds on tree. Have you ever heard of that ?

Proxy-maintainership should be given a MUCH higher profile in Gentoo,
in my opinion. It is a virtually unknown option.

Another thing that works in my experience, but this is up to the
herds/projects, is having an official overlay where devs and users can
work closely together. This allows users to commit ebuilds and
patches, while there is quality control by the involved devs. Devs can
keep an eye on such overlays and move stuff to portage when they are
ready. Sunrise is the most obvious example for this, for
maintainer-wanted packages. But it works equally well for us in the Qt
project with qting-edge, and I believe kde and pro-audio have the same
experience.

But I also believe we need a better structure to handle
maintainer-needed, maintainer-wanted and nominally maintained but
ignored packages. Maybe we should form a team, which would be
dedicated to take care of such things, and which would have a review
policy for user submitted ebuilds and patches in bugzilla. A bit like
treecleaners, but bringing life instead of death. What do you think?

Cheers,
--
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
__________________________________________________ ____
 
Old 01-12-2010, 07:51 PM
Tom√°Ň° Chv√°tal
 
Default Last rites: net-nntp/inn

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Dne 12.1.2010 21:33, Mike Frysinger napsal(a):
> On Monday 11 January 2010 22:43:18 Jeremy Olexa wrote:
>> On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 20:36:37 -0500, Richard Freeman wrote:
>>> On 01/11/2010 06:30 PM, Arnaud Launay wrote:
>>>> As a newsmaster, I'm a bit concerned by this.
>>>
>>> Yeah, inn seems like a really high-profile package to mask for removal.
>>> It would be conspicuous in its absence.
>>>
>>> Would it make sense to post on -dev BEFORE masking packages like this?
>>> I'm sure there are lots of people who would chip in before something
>>> like this dies.
>>
>> (A general reply, not targeted towards you, Rich)
>>
>> Speaking on behalf of the treecleaners:
>> The fact is, some of us have never heard of "inn" and until Gentoo has
>> some sort of "popularity tracking" software/tool, the treecleaners will
>> continue to mask unmaintained software. We can't possible know about every
>> package in the tree and if it looks like it is unmaintained (open bugs w/o
>> action) then we will mask it for removal unless someone fixes it and
>> maintains it.
>
> you need to fix your filter then. an "open bug" is not an acceptable reason
> for masking a package. if you're going to clean a package, you need to
> research actual reasons to mask & punt.
> -mike
Dont be joking,
Your approach of adding new packages to main tree is that you add them
with empty metadata.xml and we have to remove them in few years because
they are steaming piles of bugs...

Lack of maintainer and open bugs are valid reasons.
And since WE want to enable as-needed as default at some time we need to
work on the bugs -> if packages have no maintainer and fails it we will
have to punt them (that bug was open for 2 years+, and clearly there
were even newer versions none bothered to bump to). If anyone picks them
up and fix in the mask for cleaning that's great, because that is the
reason for having that mask, so people can be loud about removal. We
could simply punt things at the moment we want without any notice if we
would not care about user responses for such actions.

Currently there are 109 reason [1] why as-needed cant be done, if the
package has maintainer he should work on it, otherwise byes, there are
quite large unmaintained areas in the tree we have to care about.

[1]
http://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?bug_id=182324,249450,226909,299077,247 869,248195,248437,285747,280705,247931,297193,2783 10,207605,284921,247067,248586,277655,246755,27720 6,249295,248548,247043,248678,278423,247088,282426 ,247777,246729,246961,274385,278104,300515,248345, 277169,248356,277227,248169,295199,247761,277769,2 47444,294396,247768,247844,276303,278069,276250,24 6726,257996,247731,247054,277925,276873,294971,278 100,297025,248549,247779,276295,247712,260226,2809 22,248556,248163,248192,298152,274700,265643,25791 8,277938,287933,248143,248571,276928,226863,247991 ,226885,248152,248573,247044,296631,248351,248552, 247748,226917,246875,248555,294738,277794,277050,2 46970,248159,248605,247919,276506,297409,277640,24 8357,294878,248579,132992,248577,248551,278086,276 796,248411,299478,248580,276302

- --------
Tom√°Ň° Chv√°tal
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Overlays/QA/X11]
E-Mail : scarabeus@gentoo.org
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