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Old 11-04-2009, 11:29 AM
Ben de Groot
 
Default Lastrite (part 1): KDE3-only applications that won't build when KDE4 is installed

2009/11/3 Jörg Schaible <joerg.schaible@gmx.de>
> >>> # Samuli Suominen <ssuominen@gentoo.org> (16 Oct 2009)
> >>> # Fails to build with KDE4 installed wrt bug #277427.
> >>> # Masked for removal in 30 days.
> >>> net-news/eventwatcher
> >>> kde-misc/kisdnwatch
> >> ...
> >>> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=279823
> >>
> >> Does kde team changed their plans to move kde3 together with all kde3
> >> applications to dedicated overlay? If not, then why we just drop this
> >> applications?
> >>
> >
> > No, the plan hasn't changed. These won't build with _stable_ KDE4
> > installed, and has no reverse deps. As such, they will be killed. Only
> > the functional KDE3 programs will be moved to overlay.
>
> Sorry, I cannot follow this argumentation. In the office I need Exchange
> integration and all I can hope is, that it is ready for KDE 4.5. Unless
> this time, I have to stick with KDE3.
>
> However, with you removing all those apps, you also remove quite some that I
> use and need also. If you do not move them to the KDE3 overlay, my KDE3
> setup is quite similar useless as KDE4 and the KDE3 overlay is simply a
> farce. If I use KDE3 only, I do *not* have KDE4 on my machine i.e. those
> apps *will* build without problems. You would have better add some build
> dependency with <kdelibs-4 to effectively block those ebuilds when KDE4 is
> installed.

You should join the kde-sunset (aka kde3) overlay team and maintain those
packages, with the proper kde4 blocks, in that overlay. It expressly exists for
people who need legacy applications.

--
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
__________________________________________________ ____
 
Old 11-04-2009, 11:29 AM
Ben de Groot
 
Default Lastrite (part 1): KDE3-only applications that won't build when KDE4 is installed

2009/11/3 Jörg Schaible <joerg.schaible@gmx.de>
> >>> # Samuli Suominen <ssuominen@gentoo.org> (16 Oct 2009)
> >>> # Fails to build with KDE4 installed wrt bug #277427.
> >>> # Masked for removal in 30 days.
> >>> net-news/eventwatcher
> >>> kde-misc/kisdnwatch
> >> ...
> >>> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=279823
> >>
> >> Does kde team changed their plans to move kde3 together with all kde3
> >> applications to dedicated overlay? If not, then why we just drop this
> >> applications?
> >>
> >
> > No, the plan hasn't changed. These won't build with _stable_ KDE4
> > installed, and has no reverse deps. As such, they will be killed. Only
> > the functional KDE3 programs will be moved to overlay.
>
> Sorry, I cannot follow this argumentation. In the office I need Exchange
> integration and all I can hope is, that it is ready for KDE 4.5. Unless
> this time, I have to stick with KDE3.
>
> However, with you removing all those apps, you also remove quite some that I
> use and need also. If you do not move them to the KDE3 overlay, my KDE3
> setup is quite similar useless as KDE4 and the KDE3 overlay is simply a
> farce. If I use KDE3 only, I do *not* have KDE4 on my machine i.e. those
> apps *will* build without problems. You would have better add some build
> dependency with <kdelibs-4 to effectively block those ebuilds when KDE4 is
> installed.

You should join the kde-sunset (aka kde3) overlay team and maintain those
packages, with the proper kde4 blocks, in that overlay. It expressly exists for
people who need legacy applications.

--
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
__________________________________________________ ____
 
Old 11-04-2009, 11:46 AM
Dale
 
Default Lastrite (part 1): KDE3-only applications that won't build when KDE4 is installed

Ben de Groot wrote:
> 2009/11/3 Jörg Schaible <joerg.schaible@gmx.de>
>
>>>>> # Samuli Suominen <ssuominen@gentoo.org> (16 Oct 2009)
>>>>> # Fails to build with KDE4 installed wrt bug #277427.
>>>>> # Masked for removal in 30 days.
>>>>> net-news/eventwatcher
>>>>> kde-misc/kisdnwatch
>>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=279823
>>>>>
>>>> Does kde team changed their plans to move kde3 together with all kde3
>>>> applications to dedicated overlay? If not, then why we just drop this
>>>> applications?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> No, the plan hasn't changed. These won't build with _stable_ KDE4
>>> installed, and has no reverse deps. As such, they will be killed. Only
>>> the functional KDE3 programs will be moved to overlay.
>>>
>> Sorry, I cannot follow this argumentation. In the office I need Exchange
>> integration and all I can hope is, that it is ready for KDE 4.5. Unless
>> this time, I have to stick with KDE3.
>>
>> However, with you removing all those apps, you also remove quite some that I
>> use and need also. If you do not move them to the KDE3 overlay, my KDE3
>> setup is quite similar useless as KDE4 and the KDE3 overlay is simply a
>> farce. If I use KDE3 only, I do *not* have KDE4 on my machine i.e. those
>> apps *will* build without problems. You would have better add some build
>> dependency with <kdelibs-4 to effectively block those ebuilds when KDE4 is
>> installed.
>>
>
> You should join the kde-sunset (aka kde3) overlay team and maintain those
> packages, with the proper kde4 blocks, in that overlay. It expressly exists for
> people who need legacy applications.
>
> --
> Ben de Groot
> Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
> __________________________________________________ ____
>
>

< lowly user here>

We have been having a discussion on the KDE mailing list over the last
few days and a couple of us Gentoo users have "issues". KDE 4 is just
not ready quite yet. I firmly believe it will be in the next few months
and with each upgrade it gets better. As I wrote on the KDE list a
short time ago, some of us feel that we are having KDE 4 forced on us
when it is not ready just because KDE 3.5 is not being maintained. I'm
not pointing at Gentoo here because this appears to be coming from
upstream. Gentoo can't provide packages when upstream is not updating.

What my point, and the point from others is, we need KDE 3.5 to be in
the tree until at least KDE 4.4 or even better KDE 4.5 is released. I
have faith that KDE 4 will be ready and fully usable by that point.
Surely this can be done somehow. If not, KDE needs to rethink how they
do this next time so that it can. It's not like KDE is new on the block.

Just to be clear, I don't think this is a Gentoo problem but a problem
with how KDE is handling the releases. It sounds like KDE has dropped
the ball on KDE 3.5 a little bit early. I'm not a dev so I could be
wrong here.

< end lowly user >

Dale

P. S. Going back to my hole now.
 
Old 11-04-2009, 12:15 PM
Ben de Groot
 
Default Lastrite (part 1): KDE3-only applications that won't build when KDE4 is installed

2009/11/4 Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com>:
> We have been having a discussion on the KDE mailing list over the last
> few days and a couple of us Gentoo users have "issues". *KDE 4 is just
> not ready quite yet. *I firmly believe it will be in the next few months
> and with each upgrade it gets better. *As I wrote on the KDE list a
> short time ago, some of us feel that we are having KDE 4 forced on us
> when it is not ready just because KDE 3.5 is not being maintained. *I'm
> not pointing at Gentoo here because this appears to be coming from
> upstream. *Gentoo can't provide packages when upstream is not updating.
>
> What my point, and the point from others is, we need KDE 3.5 to be in
> the tree until at least KDE 4.4 or even better KDE 4.5 is released. *I
> have faith that KDE 4 will be ready and fully usable by that point.
> Surely this can be done somehow. *If not, KDE needs to rethink how they
> do this next time so that it can. *It's not like KDE is new on the block.
>
> Just to be clear, I don't think this is a Gentoo problem but a problem
> with how KDE is handling the releases. *It sounds like KDE has dropped
> the ball on KDE 3.5 a little bit early. *I'm not a dev so I could be
> wrong here.

I agree with you that KDE4 is not yet up to the standards of stability and
usability we are used to in KDE3. However, both KDE and Qt upstream
have de facto dropped support for their respective version 3. This means
nobody is looking at security issues for those old versions. We cannot be
expected to do that job for them, and do not want to maintain versions
no longer supported upstream with possibly unknown security bugs.

As you say, it is indeed an upstream problem, which forces our hand.
But to extend a hand to those users who want to stick with the old versions
and are willing to take possible security risks, we have started the kde3
overlay. And we are happy to help "lowly" users like you to get the skills
to co-maintain those packages in the overlay.

As it is now, we have no Gentoo developer who is committed to maintain
both Qt3 and KDE3, and we feel it is irresponsible to leave those
unmaintained in the tree.

Cheers,
--
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
__________________________________________________ ____
 
Old 11-04-2009, 12:55 PM
Dale
 
Default Lastrite (part 1): KDE3-only applications that won't build when KDE4 is installed

Ben de Groot wrote:
> 2009/11/4 Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com>:
>
>> We have been having a discussion on the KDE mailing list over the last
>> few days and a couple of us Gentoo users have "issues". KDE 4 is just
>> not ready quite yet. I firmly believe it will be in the next few months
>> and with each upgrade it gets better. As I wrote on the KDE list a
>> short time ago, some of us feel that we are having KDE 4 forced on us
>> when it is not ready just because KDE 3.5 is not being maintained. I'm
>> not pointing at Gentoo here because this appears to be coming from
>> upstream. Gentoo can't provide packages when upstream is not updating.
>>
>> What my point, and the point from others is, we need KDE 3.5 to be in
>> the tree until at least KDE 4.4 or even better KDE 4.5 is released. I
>> have faith that KDE 4 will be ready and fully usable by that point.
>> Surely this can be done somehow. If not, KDE needs to rethink how they
>> do this next time so that it can. It's not like KDE is new on the block.
>>
>> Just to be clear, I don't think this is a Gentoo problem but a problem
>> with how KDE is handling the releases. It sounds like KDE has dropped
>> the ball on KDE 3.5 a little bit early. I'm not a dev so I could be
>> wrong here.
>>
>
> I agree with you that KDE4 is not yet up to the standards of stability and
> usability we are used to in KDE3. However, both KDE and Qt upstream
> have de facto dropped support for their respective version 3. This means
> nobody is looking at security issues for those old versions. We cannot be
> expected to do that job for them, and do not want to maintain versions
> no longer supported upstream with possibly unknown security bugs.
>
> As you say, it is indeed an upstream problem, which forces our hand.
> But to extend a hand to those users who want to stick with the old versions
> and are willing to take possible security risks, we have started the kde3
> overlay. And we are happy to help "lowly" users like you to get the skills
> to co-maintain those packages in the overlay.
>
> As it is now, we have no Gentoo developer who is committed to maintain
> both Qt3 and KDE3, and we feel it is irresponsible to leave those
> unmaintained in the tree.
>
> Cheers,
>

< lowly user again >

Is it possible to just mask and maybe keyword KDE 3? Maybe do a news
item as to why it is being done? That way people like me that don't use
overlays can still keep KDE 3.5 but it requires us to unmask them. It
would be just like we have to do to use a new program that may have
security issues or bugs but just in reverse.

I mention because I have already downloaded Mandriva and plan to install
it as a temporary fix if needed. I think I can suffer through Mandriva
for a couple months while this gets sorted out. I'm planning to install
the same for my brother. I would like to install Gentoo but he's not as
geeky as me.

< back to my hole again >

Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 11-04-2009, 01:29 PM
AllenJB
 
Default Lastrite (part 1): KDE3-only applications that won't build when KDE4 is installed

Dale wrote:
> < lowly user again >
>
> Is it possible to just mask and maybe keyword KDE 3? Maybe do a news
> item as to why it is being done? That way people like me that don't use
> overlays can still keep KDE 3.5 but it requires us to unmask them. It
> would be just like we have to do to use a new program that may have
> security issues or bugs but just in reverse.
>
> I mention because I have already downloaded Mandriva and plan to install
> it as a temporary fix if needed. I think I can suffer through Mandriva
> for a couple months while this gets sorted out. I'm planning to install
> the same for my brother. I would like to install Gentoo but he's not as
> geeky as me.
>
> < back to my hole again >
>
> Dale
>
> :-) :-)
>

Give the developers a _good_ reason why overlays shouldn't be used in
this case and I'm sure they'll consider it. But I don't think "I refuse
to use a standard tool of my chosen distro (for no good reason)" is
going to change their minds here.

Overlays allow for a clear separation of fully supported and partially /
unsupported packages in a manner that's clear, easy to use and maintain
for both users and developers, with the added bonus of reducing disk
usage and sync time for those who don't wish to use that set of packages.

I fully welcome the way the sunsetting of KDE 3.5 is being done. It's
clear and easy to follow.

AllenJB
 
Old 11-04-2009, 01:45 PM
Ben de Groot
 
Default Lastrite (part 1): KDE3-only applications that won't build when KDE4 is installed

2009/11/4 Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com>:
> Is it possible to just mask and maybe keyword KDE 3?

This has already been decided. We are moving it to an overlay.
I can't think of a valid reason why you would not use that overlay.

>*Maybe do a news item as to why it is being done?

There *is* a news item:
/usr/portage/metadata/news/2009-11-02-kde-3/2009-11-02-kde-3.en.txt

Which references
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-desktop/msg_a3e260bd0545cb4e763c81bc60f81de2.xml

And for Qt3 there is
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_e81a66259e844162ef7f2db2a358d440.xml

Cheers,
--
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
__________________________________________________ ____
 
Old 11-04-2009, 08:48 PM
Dale
 
Default Lastrite (part 1): KDE3-only applications that won't build when KDE4 is installed

Ben de Groot wrote:
> 2009/11/4 Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com>:
>
>> Is it possible to just mask and maybe keyword KDE 3?
>>
>
> This has already been decided. We are moving it to an overlay.
> I can't think of a valid reason why you would not use that overlay.
>

Because I don't want one more thing to have to deal with. Gentoo is
enough fun already.

>
>> Maybe do a news item as to why it is being done?
>>
>
> There *is* a news item:
> /usr/portage/metadata/news/2009-11-02-kde-3/2009-11-02-kde-3.en.txt
>
> Which references
> http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-desktop/msg_a3e260bd0545cb4e763c81bc60f81de2.xml
>
> And for Qt3 there is
> http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_e81a66259e844162ef7f2db2a358d440.xml
>
> Cheers,
>

I was talking about *if* KDE 3.5 was masked then have a news item as to
why it was being masked. Since keeping it in the tree is not going to
happen then there is no point.

Dale

:-) :-)
 

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