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Old 03-22-2009, 07:38 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default Gentoo Council Reminder for March 26

On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 21:18:52 +0100
Donnie Berkholz <dberkholz@gentoo.org> wrote:
> If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even vote
> on, let us know! Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole Gentoo dev
> list to see.

Continuing the whole EAPI 3 thing...

http://github.com/ciaranm/pms/tree/eapi-3 is a draft based upon
ongoing discussion. There's more or less one commit per new feature. For
each feature, I'd like to know:

* whether there are any objections to that feature as a candidate for
EAPI 3

* what the plan is for Portage implementation of that feature, and the
likelihood of it making it

* whether that feature is considered critical for EAPI 3, or whether it
can be dropped if necessary if Portage can't get it implemented
within a certain time

Also, I'd like to know of any potential omissions.

I'd imagine this'd go easier of Council members went through before the
meeting and provided individual opinions on each item, and then just
discussed any disagreements during the meeting, but whatever's best for
you...

This list might help for those who're scared of git:

1) EAPI 3 has pkg_pretend.
2) EAPI 3 supports slot operator dependencies
3) EAPI 3 has use dependency defaults
4) PROPERTIES, DEFINED_PHASES mandatory in EAPI 3
5) EAPI 3 has a default src_install
6) EAPI 3 has controllable compression and docompress
7) EAPI 3 has dodoc -r
8) EAPI 3 requires doins support for symlinks
9) EAPI 3 bans || ( use? ( ... ) )
10) dohard and dosed banned in EAPI 3
11) doinclude, newinclude for EAPI 3
12) EAPI 3 supports .xz, .tar.xz
13) EAPI 3 has more econf arguments
14) EAPI 3 supports pkg_info on installed packages
15) USE is stricter in EAPI 3
16) AA, KV gone in EAPI 3
17) S to WORKDIR fallback conditional for EAPI 3
18) EAPI 3 has unpack --if-compressed, new src_unpack
19) RDEPEND=DEPEND gone in EAPI 3
20) EAPI 3 has doexample.
21) REPLACING_VERSIONS and REPLACED_BY_VERSION in EAPI 3
22) EAPI 3 has nonfatal, utilities die

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 03-23-2009, 07:08 AM
Tiziano Müller
 
Default Gentoo Council Reminder for March 26

Am Sonntag, den 22.03.2009, 20:38 +0000 schrieb Ciaran McCreesh:
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 21:18:52 +0100
> Donnie Berkholz <dberkholz@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even vote
> > on, let us know! Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole Gentoo dev
> > list to see.
>
> Continuing the whole EAPI 3 thing...
>
> http://github.com/ciaranm/pms/tree/eapi-3 is a draft based upon
> ongoing discussion. There's more or less one commit per new feature. For
> each feature, I'd like to know:
>
> * whether there are any objections to that feature as a candidate for
> EAPI 3
>
> * what the plan is for Portage implementation of that feature, and the
> likelihood of it making it
I already started to implement small proposals for portage. For some
issues some minor structural/architectural have to be made.

>
> * whether that feature is considered critical for EAPI 3, or whether it
> can be dropped if necessary if Portage can't get it implemented
> within a certain time
>
> Also, I'd like to know of any potential omissions.
>
> I'd imagine this'd go easier of Council members went through before the
> meeting and provided individual opinions on each item, and then just
> discussed any disagreements during the meeting, but whatever's best for
> you...
>
> This list might help for those who're scared of git:
>
> 1) EAPI 3 has pkg_pretend.
We have to write something here (probably not in PMS but in the
devmanual) to make clear what is allowed in pkg_pretend and what not.

> 2) EAPI 3 supports slot operator dependencies
> 3) EAPI 3 has use dependency defaults
> 4) PROPERTIES, DEFINED_PHASES mandatory in EAPI 3
> 5) EAPI 3 has a default src_install
Spec needed. DOCS or no DOCS?

> 6) EAPI 3 has controllable compression and docompress
> 7) EAPI 3 has dodoc -r
> 8) EAPI 3 requires doins support for symlinks
Current behaviour is to copy the file the symlink points to, right?
Is that behaviour unsafe and should be deprecated completely or do we
add a flag turning on the new/the old behaviour?

> 9) EAPI 3 bans || ( use? ( ... ) )
> 10) dohard and dosed banned in EAPI 3
> 11) doinclude, newinclude for EAPI 3
> 12) EAPI 3 supports .xz, .tar.xz
> 13) EAPI 3 has more econf arguments
> 14) EAPI 3 supports pkg_info on installed packages
you probably mean: uninstalled

> 15) USE is stricter in EAPI 3
Proper documentation for IUSE_IMPLICIT/USE_EXPAND_IMPLICIT is needed. In
the PMS draft there's only a reference to section 11.1.1, but in that
section is nothing about it.

> 16) AA, KV gone in EAPI 3
> 17) S to WORKDIR fallback conditional for EAPI 3
> 18) EAPI 3 has unpack --if-compressed, new src_unpack
> 19) RDEPEND=DEPEND gone in EAPI 3
> 20) EAPI 3 has doexample.
Including "-r" or implicit recursive?

> 21) REPLACING_VERSIONS and REPLACED_BY_VERSION in EAPI 3
Same thing as for 1)

> 22) EAPI 3 has nonfatal, utilities die

... and we've got most (if not all) proposals with reasons documented
here:
http://dev.gentoo.org/~dev-zero/docs/EAPI3.html

Cheers,
Tiziano
 
Old 03-23-2009, 10:25 AM
Robert Buchholz
 
Default Gentoo Council Reminder for March 26

On Monday 23 March 2009, Tiziano Müller wrote:
> Spec needed. DOCS or no DOCS?

DOCS, and non-empty default value, please [1].
Some eclasses already do this (not base, but others), and if that
default doesn't cover it for you, the function can be overridden.

Concerning the argument of declarative ebuilds vs. bash-oriented ebuilds
brought up by Donnie: Our ebuilds always had declarative parts with an
impact on the PM (e.g. RESTRICT), or on eclasses (WANT_AUTOCONF, or
look at the games eclass).
I think if we stay within sane limits[2], following this paradigm is
going to help developers because more simple cases will be caught by
the default implementation without adding the complexities of having to
know tons of (aka "more than one") variables and how they interact.

Robert

[1] As seen here: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33544#c17
[2] That is very fuzzy, but we're talking about introducing one variable
in one function. Any lower limit would be to disallow.
 
Old 03-25-2009, 10:22 AM
Donnie Berkholz
 
Default Gentoo Council Reminder for March 26

On 21:18 Sun 22 Mar , Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even vote
> on, let us know! Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole Gentoo dev
> list to see.

Here's a very simple agenda. I'm at a conference this week, so I'm glad
there weren't a ton of topics submitted. =)


EAPI-3 update
-------------

As usual, I strongly advise people to respond on-list. Please note the
recent posts in this thread.


Open bugs
---------

I have an update on bug #237381 that I posted to -council a while ago.
If no council members have comments on it, I'm going to remove it from
draft state.

--
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Developer, Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com
 
Old 03-25-2009, 09:06 PM
Donnie Berkholz
 
Default Gentoo Council Reminder for March 26

On 20:38 Sun 22 Mar , Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> 1) EAPI 3 has pkg_pretend.
> 3) EAPI 3 has use dependency defaults
> 5) EAPI 3 has a default src_install
> 15) USE is stricter in EAPI 3
> 19) RDEPEND=DEPEND gone in EAPI 3
> 22) EAPI 3 has nonfatal, utilities die

Very Yes. I would really like to see these in portage.

> 14) EAPI 3 supports pkg_info on installed packages

This should be "uninstalled", and yes.

> 4) PROPERTIES, DEFINED_PHASES mandatory in EAPI 3
> 6) EAPI 3 has controllable compression and docompress
> 7) EAPI 3 has dodoc -r
> 8) EAPI 3 requires doins support for symlinks
> 12) EAPI 3 supports .xz, .tar.xz
> 13) EAPI 3 has more econf arguments
> 16) AA, KV gone in EAPI 3
> 17) S to WORKDIR fallback conditional for EAPI 3
> 20) EAPI 3 has doexample.

Sure. Anything here is optional but nice.

> 9) EAPI 3 bans || ( use? ( ... ) )

What is the suggested replacement? If there's a decent one, sure.

> 2) EAPI 3 supports slot operator dependencies

Was this for bug #229521? If so, sure.


Now for the ones I'm not so sure about...

> 10) dohard and dosed banned in EAPI 3

I think I missed the reasoning for removing these, particularly dosed.
pybugz didn't see any open bugs.

> 11) doinclude, newinclude for EAPI 3

Is installing to /usr/include by default useful for most packages that
want to use this? Or would they /usr/include/${PN}? If you have to
change it often, aren't you just as well off using insinto/doins? Should
there be an "includeinto"?

> 18) EAPI 3 has unpack --if-compressed, new src_unpack

Still not convinced about this.

> 21) REPLACING_VERSIONS and REPLACED_BY_VERSION in EAPI 3

I'm curious why it isn't global. Seems like it would make sense to put
it near dependencies. Also I could be wrong, but wouldn't you want to be
able to cache this and show smart pretend output, etc?

--
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Developer, Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com
 
Old 03-25-2009, 10:23 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default Gentoo Council Reminder for March 26

On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 23:06:37 +0100
Donnie Berkholz <dberkholz@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > 9) EAPI 3 bans || ( use? ( ... ) )
>
> What is the suggested replacement? If there's a decent one, sure.

The replacement is to write the deps out correctly. Every single use of
|| ( use? ( ... ) ) in the tree is wrong.

> > 2) EAPI 3 supports slot operator dependencies
>
> Was this for bug #229521? If so, sure.

Yup. I'm avoiding the term 'multi-slot', though, since that's not what
this is and we're already using multi- in relation to slots for the
non-static SLOT idea.

> > 10) dohard and dosed banned in EAPI 3
>
> I think I missed the reasoning for removing these, particularly
> dosed. pybugz didn't see any open bugs.

Portage doesn't merge hardlinks correctly, so dohard is bad. And
dosed's been considered deprecated for years.

> > 11) doinclude, newinclude for EAPI 3
>
> Is installing to /usr/include by default useful for most packages
> that want to use this? Or would they /usr/include/${PN}? If you have
> to change it often, aren't you just as well off using insinto/doins?
> Should there be an "includeinto"?

I'd be inclined to agree on that one, but people seem to be after more
of these do* things.

> > 21) REPLACING_VERSIONS and REPLACED_BY_VERSION in EAPI 3
>
> I'm curious why it isn't global. Seems like it would make sense to
> put it near dependencies. Also I could be wrong, but wouldn't you
> want to be able to cache this and show smart pretend output, etc?

I think you're misunderstanding what this is for. It's to allow
packages to work out whether they're upgrading / downgrading /
reinstalling / whatever, since Zac broke the devmanual-documented and
PMS-required way of doing it using has_version and refuses to revert it.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 03-25-2009, 10:26 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default Gentoo Council Reminder for March 26

On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 09:08:37 +0100
Tiziano Müller <dev-zero@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > 8) EAPI 3 requires doins support for symlinks
>
> Current behaviour is to copy the file the symlink points to, right?

No, current behaviour is undefined for not a file.

> > 14) EAPI 3 supports pkg_info on installed packages
> you probably mean: uninstalled

Yup. The diff's right, just the commit message that's wrong.

> > 15) USE is stricter in EAPI 3
>
> Proper documentation for IUSE_IMPLICIT/USE_EXPAND_IMPLICIT is needed.
> In the PMS draft there's only a reference to section 11.1.1, but in
> that section is nothing about it.

I'm still not sure a) whether we want those, b) how exactly they work
or c) whether there's any chance at all of Portage supporting this in
the time we're after.

> > 20) EAPI 3 has doexample.
> Including "-r" or implicit recursive?

Nope.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 

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