Linux Archive

Linux Archive (http://www.linux-archive.org/)
-   Gentoo Development (http://www.linux-archive.org/gentoo-development/)
-   -   devs on IRC (was :Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support )) (http://www.linux-archive.org/gentoo-development/260340-devs-irc-regen2-qa-overlay-layout-support.html)

Fabian Groffen 03-10-2009 11:28 AM

devs on IRC (was :Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support ))
 
On 10-03-2009 13:15:36 +0100, Thilo Bangert wrote:
> > Bugs aren't a good way to keep in touch with developers, that's what
> > irc is for.
>
> while i dont necessarily think, that bugzi is the best way to stay in
> contact with me, it surely is a better way than IRC - on which i am close
> to never.
>
> the presumption seems to be, that as a dev one has to be available via
> IRC. it has long been my feeling that Gentoo as a project could realize
> more of its potential by better integrating people who dont do IRC.

+1


--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

Donnie Berkholz 03-13-2009 05:09 PM

devs on IRC (was :Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support ))
 
On 19:06 Wed 11 Mar , Thilo Bangert wrote:
> > > the presumption seems to be, that as a dev one has to be available
> > > via IRC. it has long been my feeling that Gentoo as a project
> > > could realize more of its potential by better integrating people
> > > who dont do IRC.

I think IRC helps to build a more tightly knit community and, because of
this, is very important to Gentoo. The less close we are as a community,
the more free we feel to be hostile because we don't see the folks on
the other end of the big tube as real people. It's much like a technique
that militaries use during wars to de-personalize the enemy, except with
the Internet, we start that way and have to apply effort to grow closer.

--
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Developer, Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com

Donnie Berkholz 03-14-2009 04:37 AM

devs on IRC (was :Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support ))
 
On 14:05 Fri 13 Mar , Michael Higgins wrote:
> I believe, rather, that the issue is the 'community' appears more like
> a 'cabal' when the discussions take place on #IRC and therefore aren't
> available in public archives.

This is kind of like saying: "I don't read the Gentoo forums, so
everything that happens on the forums is a cabal." When you specifically
choose not to participate in an entire method of communication, it's
your choice to leave yourself out. A cabal is totally different -- it
doesn't give you that choice by never even telling you there is a place
where discussions happen.

> Even if they are, an IRC log is a *terrible* way to document an issue.

I agree. So is a mailing-list archive that is also never summarized.
It's not the location that makes it a problem, it's the volume of
information and the lack of a summary of important decisions or long,
important discussions.

> You all get more closely knit, perhaps, yet appear to do more *in
> secret*. There is *no way* to find out what is going on, without
> becoming part of the problem... by asking, or lurking, on IRC. This is
> bad.

I can't agree with your assertion that IRC is secretive, is a problem or
is bad. I think completely the opposite in all cases. Secretive would be
a closed IRC network that we didn't tell non-developers about or didn't
allow them to join.

--
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Developer, Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com

Donnie Berkholz 03-14-2009 04:47 AM

devs on IRC (was :Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support ))
 
On 19:56 Fri 13 Mar , Thilo Bangert wrote:
> Donnie Berkholz <dberkholz@gentoo.org> said:
> > On 19:06 Wed 11 Mar , Thilo Bangert wrote:
> > > > > the presumption seems to be, that as a dev one has to be
> > > > > available via IRC. it has long been my feeling that Gentoo as
> > > > > a project could realize more of its potential by better
> > > > > integrating people who dont do IRC.
> >
> > I think IRC helps to build a more tightly knit community and,
> > because of this, is very important to Gentoo. The less close we are
> > as a community, the more free we feel to be hostile because we don't
> > see the folks on the other end of the big tube as real people. It's
> > much like a technique that militaries use during wars to
> > de-personalize the enemy, except with the Internet, we start that
> > way and have to apply effort to grow closer.
>
> so you say, that presumption is ok?

Honestly, yes. Gentoo development (and users too!) is a very
IRC-centered community, and I think IRC is one of the reasons it is a
strong development community. Parts of the forums are similarly critical
to building a strong user community (Gentoo Chat, Off the Wall), as is
the Gentoo Universe for developers.

IRC is a lot like this mailing list in some ways. Even as developers,
you can choose not to participate, and consequently you have to deal
with the decisions you chose not to be part of making when you hear
about them after the fact on -dev-announce.

> i agree 100% with what you say, but it doesnt (at least directly)
> address my concern. i think IRC is an excellent medium - the problems
> i see, though, are related to the fact that IRC requires all
> stakeholders to be available at the time of discussion. for a
> multitude of reasons this can almost never be guaranteed. also, even
> if we did have IRC logs, the signal to noise ratio on IRC is
> devastating (at least in my experience).

I agree that all stakeholders (to use your term) ought to participate
before a decision, but even on IRC this doesn't mean they all have to be
present simultaneously. In my experience, a few stakeholders are around
at a time, and they're able to have a lot of very fast real-time
discussion that would be vastly slowed down by a mailing list. Then a
few hours later, maybe a couple of the same people will be around and a
couple new stakeholders. The new ones catch up and have some more fast
back-and-forth.

> for those reasons, i would like to see more bridge-building between
> the worlds. i didnt want to give examples, as i dont like pointing
> fingers, but here it is: relengs discussion to switch to weekly
> autobuilds. presumably there hast been one, but i cant find it in the
> list archives. not on gentoo-dev@g.o and not on gentoo-releng@g.o -
> where else should i look? IRC perhaps - well, where are the logs?
> interestingly, the announcement of the switch has a pointer to the
> releng project page, which does not even mention the IRC channel.

I agree that important decisions deserve summaries instead of hiding out
anywhere, whether it's buried in IRC discussions or archived
mailing-list threads!

--
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Developer, Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:50 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.