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Old 06-19-2008, 08:59 PM
Andreas Aronsson
 
Default flamewars@gentoo-dev

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008, Ivan Chernyavsky wrote:


Dear Gentoo developers,

I am a grateful Gentoo user, I'm pretty happy with Gentoo and already have five
installations of it, including one running a pilot project at my work.
I started working with Linux 6 years ago and came through RH-SuSE-Ubuntu.
None of them (except maybe SuSE 9.0 for some time) was perfect for me,
until I tried Gentoo. So firstly, *thank a lot* guys.

Recently I've subscribed to this list because I thought this is the right way
to start being involved in Gentoo development process --- I thought technical
discussions are of most importance here.

But what do I see? For more than a week, I need to came through dozens of
pure-fanatical e-mails having nothing except personal insults, FUD, idiotic
wikipedia links etc. etc. I can't believe it was always like this. I really hope
this is a temporary burst, caused by proposed EAPI change or something else,
because it makes my plans of carefully introducing
Gentoo as business-critical-ready-os to my employer much more complicated.

Maybe it is time to create a list gentoo-flame or gentoo-fud and post everything
there? I'm subscribed to several development and user mailing lists and I
nowhere I saw anything like this, for so long period of time.

Sorry if I don't understand something --- I'm really a new gentoo-dev reader,
but I feel sorry for this brilliant distribution sinking in the darkness
of FUD. Please please *do* stop it.

Many thanks in advance,




++
Pretty much in the same situation and reading these emails for exactly
the same reasons for a month or so.
I am not impressed and a bit sad.


--
Andreas Aronsson
Mobil: +46 704 566 595
www.aron.nu

"I'd rather have friends who care than friends who agree with me."
- Arlo Guthrie
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 06-19-2008, 09:23 PM
"Benedikt Morbach"
 
Default flamewars@gentoo-dev

++

I'm a user too and I really find it annoying that one can't read this
list to keep up with recent development, without digging to tons of
FUD, insults and other crap.
I personally came to the conclusion that it is best to simply ignore
all mails from certain people (hint: Most of them were forcibly
retired and work on an alternative package manager and a certain
dokument where they try to set gentoo standards from the outside.)
I found out, that you loose nearly nothing by completely ignoring these people.

What especially makes me sad is, that there are so many people here
feeding the trolls. (And yes, sometimes I can't even hold myself back)

---
Benedikt
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 06-19-2008, 09:49 PM
Bernd Steinhauser
 
Default flamewars@gentoo-dev

Benedikt Morbach schrieb:

++

I'm a user too and I really find it annoying that one can't read this
list to keep up with recent development, without digging to tons of
FUD, insults and other crap.
I personally came to the conclusion that it is best to simply ignore
all mails from certain people (hint: Most of them were forcibly
retired and work on an alternative package manager and a certain
dokument where they try to set gentoo standards from the outside.)
I found out, that you loose nearly nothing by completely ignoring these people.

What especially makes me sad is, that there are so many people here
feeding the trolls. (And yes, sometimes I can't even hold myself back)


In a perfect world, it, would be enough to look at one side of the
thing. (Yeah, maybe in a perfect world, there would be no need to deal
with stuff like this.)


But this isn't a perfect world.
So please don't make the mistake an go through this only reading it the
way you want to see it.


The problem with that kind of threads normally is, that people on
both(!) sides would rather cut their leg off than admitting, that the
other person might be right. (Not judging who was right, I have my
opinion about it, but you might already know that.)


Yes, there have been personal insults, but again on both sides and I
would rather have hoped, that this wouldn't have happened.

But again, this wasn't a one-side matter.

You mention "tons of FUD". That is a really strong phrase and to be
honest, I didn't see FUD from the Paludis folks.
There was some mess about this Pkgcore bug, but that wasn't actually
FUD, but the truth, which unfortunately turned into a really ugly thing.

(And maybe got more attention than it deserved.)

Now I guess that someone will reply to me, that this is off-topic on
this list, which obviously nobody will answer you.

But keep it low, no need to start over again. ;-)

Bernd
--
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Old 06-19-2008, 09:56 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default flamewars@gentoo-dev

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400
Ivan Chernyavsky <camposer@yandex.ru> wrote:
> Recently I've subscribed to this list because I thought this is the
> right way to start being involved in Gentoo development process --- I
> thought technical discussions are of most importance here.

You are sadly mistaken. Gentoo hasn't been able to deliver technical
progress for a long time, and anyone attempting to get anywhere will be
met with constant attacks from people who are unable to admit to
themselves that some fairly major changes are needed to allow Gentoo to
keep up with the rest of the world.

Unfortunately, Gentoo is now more concerned about pandering to its
'community' (in reality a small number of prolific forums posters who
run Ubuntu) and stroking the egos of certain old-time staffers who
haven't actually done anything for years. Getting anything done
requires wasting large amounts of time dealing with people who:

* do nothing but post links to that 'poisonous people' talk at random
intervals and accuse people of being useless trolls, thus exhibiting all
the hallmarks of being poisonous useless trolls themselves.

* dismiss any technical criticism as being a 'corner case'.

* think that their opinion is important despite them not understanding
what's under discussion.

* immediately claim that any thread with more than five posts is a
flamewar.

* deliberately disguise any point they may or not be making in horridly
broken English (despite being a native speaker) just to wind people up.

* yell about how projects 'aren't sufficiently inclusive' without ever
bothering to either contribute themselves. or check whether anyone else
has tried to contribute.

* refuse to get involved in technical discussions on mailing lists or
irc where people can disagree with them, instead keeping all their
development discussion on their blog where they can delete any comment
questioning their decisions.

* pull silly emo tactics like posting "I'm not posting to this list any
more" or "I'm telling everyone I'm killfileing you" or "I'm going to
get my employer to end hosting Gentoo hardware unless you do
everything I say" in an attempt to disrupt progress even further.

* consider being in an uninformed majority more important than being
correct.

* have some insane paranoid conviction that Freenode staff are the ones
busy spying on everything they say, whilst conveniently forgetting to
notice that Gentoo's own infra team and current Council nomination group
includes the person who abused root powers to sniff out lilo's password
and give it to the GNAA.

* use every given opportunity to disrupt things by saying "Why haven't
the Portage people contributed to this?", knowing full well that the
Portage person is busy doing other things.

* conveniently forget that Portage is the thing holding Gentoo back.

* will reply to any post suggesting that things are less than perfect
with "well go away and fork Gentoo then".

* think that any unanswered posts from people doing any of the above is
sufficient reason for progress to be blocked until all the above are
satisfied, which of course they won't ever be.

And in amongst all of this, if you fight really really hard, you might,
after several months and a whole lot of people trying to kill you,
eventually get agreement upon some very minor technical point that's
necessary to start getting somewhere. Which is a shame, because Gentoo
could quite easily become a lot better than it is.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 06-19-2008, 10:35 PM
"Constantine D. Kardaris"
 
Default flamewars@gentoo-dev

++ first posts

People keep trolling and there is none to make them stop and that's
sad to watch happening for years.
I'd like to involve also thats y i subscribed but really whats the
motivation to do so?
Feels like all those discussions with users that have been made last
year have been just wasted...

When this is gonna end huh? :
--
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Old 06-19-2008, 10:36 PM
RB
 
Default flamewars@gentoo-dev

Regardless of the points being made or their validity, this is the
long-standing problem with Gentoo: excessive pride and ego and too
little inability to cooperate internally, much less externally. Too
many people are treating every discussion (turned argument) as
life-or-death and are unwilling to concede anything. Sometimes you
have to say, "I disagree, but not enough to make waves about it."

This is why we've been bleeding old-guard developers (the quiet ones
that got stuff done and didn't flame) for months and not gaining the
people that carefully examine an environment before they commit. Some
people just want to quietly go about their business and Do Things
Right, not trudge through hundred-fatwa threads detailing the latest
technical-turned-personal 'discussion'. For those of you doing the
dev thing for CV points: which will your future employer appreciate
more, fifty pseudo-technical flames or a few highly-informative
documentation posts? A dozen new packages or a 20MB IRC log detailing
what you hate about infra member $foo?


Get over yourselves. Please.
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 06-19-2008, 10:42 PM
Mike Auty
 
Default flamewars@gentoo-dev

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| And in amongst all of this, if you fight really really hard, you might,
| after several months and a whole lot of people trying to kill you,
| eventually get agreement upon some very minor technical point that's
| necessary to start getting somewhere.

So are you basically saying "You don't like fighting against Gentoo, and
Gentoo doesn't like fighting against you?". I think I might have a
mutually agreeable solution! 5

And yet still you keep fighting? Why? What do you *need* from Gentoo
that you can't get for yourself? A user base? A huge archive of
ebuilds ready and working? A large set of mostly silent developers to
maintain those ebuilds?

There's a neat little project called Exherbo you might have heard of.
It's trying to build up most of those things, and they don't put up with
incompetent, unknowledgeable people, so I'm sure they'll let you in, and
I'm sure you'll be happy there.

Yet still, you seem to *need* something from Gentoo. Given that, it's
bizarre that you're repeatedly disrespectful to members of its
community. It seems an odd tactic to present yourself so poorly when
you're in need of something...

Obviously Gentoo is taking up a lot of your time (simply time writing
replies to most every point raised on a thread), and you often seem
frustrated by the level of people you have to work with. So perhaps you
should direct your extensive energies exclusively at Exherbo?

I'm quite happy to continue working in a friendly helpful environment,
where simple questions are most often met with patient answers and
people are given the chance to learn, improve and help out where they
can. I'm happy to keep quietly maintaining my ebuilds and let the
people whose packages I package come up with the new stuff. You don't
seem to be, so perhaps this isn't the right place for you to contribute?
~ If you do want to contribute, perhaps you could consider the
environment you're working in, and be more accommodating to it rather
than fighting against it?

Mike 5
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Old 06-19-2008, 10:48 PM
"Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto"
 
Default flamewars@gentoo-dev

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400

| * have some insane paranoid conviction that Freenode staff are the ones
| busy spying on everything they say, whilst conveniently forgetting to
| notice that Gentoo's own infra team and current Council nomination group
| includes the person who abused root powers to sniff out lilo's password
| and give it to the GNAA.
|

Are you ready to back up this claim by presenting some evidence? If not,
are you ready to accept the consequence of spreading such FUD?

- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / SPARC / KDE
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Old 06-19-2008, 10:55 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default flamewars@gentoo-dev

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:48:02 +0000
"Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto" <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> | On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400
> | * have some insane paranoid conviction that Freenode staff are the
> | ones busy spying on everything they say, whilst conveniently
> | forgetting to notice that Gentoo's own infra team and current
> | Council nomination group includes the person who abused root powers
> | to sniff out lilo's password and give it to the GNAA.
>
> Are you ready to back up this claim by presenting some evidence? If
> not, are you ready to accept the consequence of spreading such FUD?

I'm sure you could ask Freenode and the developer in question for on
the record statements, if you're interested.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Old 06-19-2008, 10:55 PM
Ciaran McCreesh
 
Default flamewars@gentoo-dev

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:42:51 +0100
Mike Auty <ikelos@gentoo.org> wrote:
> And yet still you keep fighting? Why?

Because unlike pretty much everyone else around here, I haven't given
up on Gentoo. I still think it can have a future.

> What do you *need* from Gentoo that you can't get for yourself?

I don't need Gentoo. I do, however, think it would be a shame for all
the work I've put into it over the years to go to waste.

> There's a neat little project called Exherbo you might have heard of.
> It's trying to build up most of those things, and they don't put up
> with incompetent, unknowledgeable people, so I'm sure they'll let you
> in, and I'm sure you'll be happy there.

*yawn*

http://ciaranm.wordpress.com/2008/05/19/paludis-gentoo-and-exherbo/

> I'm quite happy to continue working in a friendly helpful environment,
> where simple questions are most often met with patient answers and
> people are given the chance to learn, improve and help out where they
> can. I'm happy to keep quietly maintaining my ebuilds and let the
> people whose packages I package come up with the new stuff. You don't
> seem to be, so perhaps this isn't the right place for you to
> contribute? ~ If you do want to contribute, perhaps you could
> consider the environment you're working in, and be more accommodating
> to it rather than fighting against it?

The environment is a large part of Gentoo's problem. The focus needs
to be taken away from the 'community' (where community means a bunch of
Ubuntu users who make lots of noise on the forums) and put back into
delivering a decent distribution.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
 

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