Benedikt Morbach wrote:

retired and work on an alternative package manager and a certain
dokument where they try to set gentoo standards from the outside.


Please stop spreading FUD about PMS forcing some standards over Gentoo.
Get your facts straight before commenting any further, thanks.


Cheers,
-jkt

--
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth

Hi,

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:42:51 +0100
> Mike Auty <ikelos@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> And yet still you keep fighting? Why?
>>
>
> Because unlike pretty much everyone else around here, I haven't given
> up on Gentoo. I still think it can have a future.
>

If you really think that "everyone else around here" but a small
minority has given up on Gentoo, how can you believe it still has a future?

Regards,
Thomas
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 01:11:18 +0200
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:42:51 +0100
> > Mike Auty <ikelos@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >
> >> And yet still you keep fighting? Why?
> >
> > Because unlike pretty much everyone else around here, I haven't
> > given up on Gentoo. I still think it can have a future.
>
> If you really think that "everyone else around here" but a small
> minority has given up on Gentoo, how can you believe it still has a
> future?

Because a small number of people could deliver the improvements Gentoo
needs to bring it up to speed. And once it's there, most of the people
who are quite content to do the basic work necessary to let Gentoo sit
around in its current state will be quite content to do the basic work
necessary to sit around in its new, improved state.

The problem, of course, is delivering the improvements, and it's not a
primarily technical problem.

--
Ciaran McCreesh

Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> writes:

> * dismiss any technical criticism as being a 'corner case'.

And not appreciate that addressing the 'corner cases' is very important
and not to be dismissed. I have been a software developer (though not a
Gentoo one) for 30 years, and learnt that lesson a long time ago.
--
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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400
Ivan Chernyavsky <camposer@yandex.ru> wrote:

Recently I've subscribed to this list because I thought this is the
right way to start being involved in Gentoo development process --- I
thought technical discussions are of most importance here.


You are sadly mistaken... <snip>


Once again, all accusations and no proof.

--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:48:02 +0000
"Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto" <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400
| * have some insane paranoid conviction that Freenode staff are the
| ones busy spying on everything they say, whilst conveniently
| forgetting to notice that Gentoo's own infra team and current
| Council nomination group includes the person who abused root powers
| to sniff out lilo's password and give it to the GNAA.

Are you ready to back up this claim by presenting some evidence? If
not, are you ready to accept the consequence of spreading such FUD?


I'm sure you could ask Freenode and the developer in question for on
the record statements, if you're interested.


I'd be careful, that is potentially libellous.
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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

Mike Auty <ikelos@gentoo.org> wrote:

I'm quite happy to continue working in a friendly helpful environment,
where simple questions are most often met with patient answers and
people are given the chance to learn, improve and help out where they
can. I'm happy to keep quietly maintaining my ebuilds and let the
people whose packages I package come up with the new stuff. You don't
seem to be, so perhaps this isn't the right place for you to
contribute? ~ If you do want to contribute, perhaps you could
consider the environment you're working in, and be more accommodating
to it rather than fighting against it?


The environment is a large part of Gentoo's problem. The focus needs
to be taken away from the 'community' (where community means a bunch of
Ubuntu users who make lots of noise on the forums) and put back into
delivering a decent distribution.



But people will never agree on where to draw that line. While Mike wants
"a friendly helpful environment, where simple questions are most often
met with patient answers and people are given the chance to learn,
improve and help out where they can", you want everybody to be 100%
proficient.


Now, here's the point: if only those people ever spoke who are 100% sure
that they're 100% proficient, there would probably be only 1-2 people
left to discuss an issue. That is not just shutting out "a bunch of
Ubuntu users who make lots of noise on the forums" (I don't think that's
an adequate definition for 'community', btw), but also lots of
experienced users and actually most of Gentoo's developers.
Additionally, you can have such a discussion in private.


You say you're trying to improve Gentoo. Fine. You say you want to do
this fast. Fine as well. But you have to realize that fast won't work
without support from your user base.
After all, most Gentoo users aren't here to just to use the great
package manager. They want to understand their system. (If they didn't,
they were off to use Ubuntu/... anyway.)
But now here you come, saying "Great new feature, has to be that way,
won't explain to all of you uninformed people." I don't want you to
explain every bit. But if someone raises a concern or has a question
(and I expect him to have thought about what he's saying before doing
so), you just continue acting like that. So, how can you possibly expect
any support?


--
Thomas Pani
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:40:47 +0200
Thomas Pani <thomas.pani@gmail.com> wrote:
> But people will never agree on where to draw that line. While Mike
> wants "a friendly helpful environment, where simple questions are
> most often met with patient answers and people are given the chance
> to learn, improve and help out where they can", you want everybody to
> be 100% proficient.

No, I want people to be reasonably proficient, and to be honest and ask
when they're not.

--
Ciaran McCreesh

On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 07:30 +0100, George Prowse wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:48:02 +0000
> > "Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto" <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> >> | On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400
> >> | * have some insane paranoid conviction that Freenode staff are
the
> >> | ones busy spying on everything they say, whilst conveniently
> >> | forgetting to notice that Gentoo's own infra team and current
> >> | Council nomination group includes the person who abused root
powers
> >> | to sniff out lilo's password and give it to the GNAA.
> >>
> >> Are you ready to back up this claim by presenting some evidence? If
> >> not, are you ready to accept the consequence of spreading such FUD?
> >
> > I'm sure you could ask Freenode and the developer in question for on
> > the record statements, if you're interested.
> >
> I'd be careful, that is potentially libellous.

No, for two reasons. No one is named, and you can't libel anonymous.
Also if it's true, it's not libel.

Regards,
Ferris
--
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@gentoo.org>
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Devrel, Sparc, Userrel, Trustees)

On 2008-06-20 07:25, George Prowse uttered these thoughts:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400
>> Ivan Chernyavsky <camposer@yandex.ru> wrote:
>>> Recently I've subscribed to this list because I thought this is the
>>> right way to start being involved in Gentoo development process --- I
>>> thought technical discussions are of most importance here.
>>
>> You are sadly mistaken... <snip>
>
> Once again, all accusations and no proof.

How much _technical_ discussion have you seen on the list lately?

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