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Old 03-21-2011, 09:46 PM
Dale
 
Default System problems

Lindsay Haisley wrote:

On Mon, 2011-03-21 at 20:08 +0000, eamjr56@bellsouth.net wrote:


Jesus, take your meds already. Roman has only been trying to help you
throughout this long sorry episode.


Please excuse yourself from any further postings to this thread. I have
asked you before to do this. If you would shut up, and if Roman would
stick to tech information rather than dispensing free social advice,
then this wouldn't be a "sorry episode", would it?




I have a feeling that a lot of others have already excused themselves
from this thread as well. I always try to read things in the most
positive way that I can but very little of your posts can have a
positive way to read them. You came to this list to get help, then seem
to refuse to take the help that is offered as if you already know the
answer, which is sort of odd since you came here for help.


If you want help, try being a little more grateful for it. I'm a lot
younger than you are but I learned a long time ago, if I ask a question,
I obviously don't have the answer and need to listen to other peoples
suggestions. I have learned this about Linux, it ain't always the
solution I think it is. Having someone thinking differently about a
problem is the reason I come to a mailing list for help. If I am asking
for help, I have already tried what I think should fix the problem. I
need to listen to someone else's suggestion or just don't post at all.


As far as I know, there are no mods here. You can email
gentoo-desktop+owner@lists.gentoo.org if you wish to complain tho. I
have not seen anything that is wrong but maybe you can convince them
otherwise. If someone has done something to violate some rule, I'm sure
they will take care of it.


Since you most likely won't like this post, I'll excuse myself now.
Good luck.


Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 03-22-2011, 12:37 AM
"Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto"
 
Default System problems

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello.

On 21-03-2011 21:46, Dale wrote:
> Lindsay Haisley wrote:
>> On Mon, 2011-03-21 at 20:08 +0000, eamjr56@bellsouth.net wrote:
>>
>>> Jesus, take your meds already. Roman has only been trying to help you
>>> throughout this long sorry episode.
>>>
>> Please excuse yourself from any further postings to this thread. I have
>> asked you before to do this. If you would shut up, and if Roman would
>> stick to tech information rather than dispensing free social advice,
>> then this wouldn't be a "sorry episode", would it?

First of all, let me start by recalling that the Gentoo Council[1] has
approved some years ago the CoC (Code of Conduct)[2] that should be
followed by anyone posting to Gentoo's public communication mediums.

[1] - http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
[2] - http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml

As such, I would kindly like to ask everyone on this thread to "calm
down" and to please try to reply in a respectful manner to any poster on
this ml.

> I have a feeling that a lot of others have already excused themselves
> from this thread as well. I always try to read things in the most
> positive way that I can but very little of your posts can have a
> positive way to read them. You came to this list to get help, then seem
> to refuse to take the help that is offered as if you already know the
> answer, which is sort of odd since you came here for help.

Lindsay,

I have to agree with other posters in this ml that your tone when you
started this thread asking for help wasn't the best one.
Thank you for the apology you've sent to the list about your tone. Let's
try to move forward and see if / how we can help you.

As I've stated above, I kindly ask everyone participating in this thread
to please watch the tone.

> As far as I know, there are no mods here. You can email
> gentoo-desktop+owner@lists.gentoo.org if you wish to complain tho. I
> have not seen anything that is wrong but maybe you can convince them
> otherwise. If someone has done something to violate some rule, I'm sure
> they will take care of it.

We have some people with the ability to moderate the mailing lists, but
we prefer to leave that for last resort only.
Many Gentoo developers are subscribed to the many lists and they may at
any time intervene as they see fit.


PS - Lindsay, two last notes about your issue and your time constraints.
This type of issue might be easier to diagnose on IRC (one good place is
#gentoo in the freenode network) where a short intense session may prove
to be quicker in the end. Also, I haven't seen anyone mention that the
latest udev versions react *very* badly to CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED_V2.
So be sure to check if you disable that as iirc udev will refuse to
create the proper device nodes if that kernel option is active.

PPS - If you decide to test our IRC support, feel free to poke me in any
channel or to /msg me in private.

- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng
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Old 03-22-2011, 01:31 AM
Lindsay Haisley
 
Default System problems

On Tue, 2011-03-22 at 00:37 -0100, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> As such, I would kindly like to ask everyone on this thread to "calm
> down" and to please try to reply in a respectful manner to any poster on
> this ml.

Thank you, Jorge. I will do so, going forward.

> I have to agree with other posters in this ml that your tone when you
> started this thread asking for help wasn't the best one.

I was kinda freaked out. I depend on my desktop system for so many
things in a day, and it's _way_ behind in updates, I know. I got pushed
into a kernel update by a simple software mod, which required a perl
update, which required that I run perl-cleaner, which has issues of its
own, and somewhere along the way I ran into a dependency on a newer
version of udev, which depended on a newer kernel, which I'd tried to
install before with the same or similar problems. I couldn't make
things work and had to resort to a rescue disk to back out. I felt
cornered, and I guess my plea for help showed it.

I actually have enough knowledge and experience with Linux that I can
probably solve this problem myself if I approach it methodically with a
clear head.

> Thank you for the apology you've sent to the list about your tone. Let's
> try to move forward and see if / how we can help you.

I can eat crow with the best of 'em, Jorge.

> PS - Lindsay, two last notes about your issue and your time constraints.
> This type of issue might be easier to diagnose on IRC (one good place is
> #gentoo in the freenode network) where a short intense session may prove
> to be quicker in the end. Also, I haven't seen anyone mention that the
> latest udev versions react *very* badly to CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED_V2.

Ah! Thanks for the heads-up on this. This switch is _not_ on in my
newer kernel, and doesn't exist in my older kernel. CONFIG_SYSFS,
however, _is_ on as I assume it should be for /sys on which udev
depends.

I don't know why udev hasn't been completely integrated into kernel
development. It's become so much a part of modern Linux and is so
interdependent with the kernel. Yes, it's in user space, but so are
other kernel hooks.

> So be sure to check if you disable that as iirc udev will refuse to
> create the proper device nodes if that kernel option is active.

Question: There are switch and value dependencies in the kernel that
are Gentoo specific, or specific to system configurations favored by
Gentoo (similar to what you mentioned above). If I emerge a Gentoo
kernel, are the default configuration options for that kernel set by
Gentoo devs so as to build a kernel which will avoid these kinds of
"gotchas"? In other words, if I build a gentoo kernel out of the box,
as opposed to a vanilla kernel from kernel.org, do I gain an advantage
with regard to possibly problematic configuration options on a fairly
standard Gentoo system? I hope this makes sense.

> PPS - If you decide to test our IRC support, feel free to poke me in any
> channel or to /msg me in private.

Jorge, thank you SO MUCH, for this, (and for being an adult in the
sandbox. I wasn't at the top of my game today :-)

--
Lindsay Haisley | "Humor will get you through times of no humor
FMP Computer Services | better than no humor will get you through
512-259-1190 | times of humor."
http://www.fmp.com | - Butch Hancock
 
Old 03-22-2011, 01:55 AM
"Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto"
 
Default System problems

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 22-03-2011 01:29, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-03-22 at 00:37 -0100, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>> PS - Lindsay, two last notes about your issue and your time constraints.
>> This type of issue might be easier to diagnose on IRC (one good place is
>> #gentoo in the freenode network) where a short intense session may prove
>> to be quicker in the end. Also, I haven't seen anyone mention that the
>> latest udev versions react *very* badly to CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED_V2.
>
> Ah! Thanks for the heads-up on this. This switch is _not_ on in my
> newer kernel, and doesn't exist in my older kernel. CONFIG_SYSFS,
> however, _is_ on as I assume it should be for /sys on which udev
> depends.

That symbol shows up here in my 2.6.32-gentoo and 2.6.35-gentoo-r8
kernel trees. On a 2.6.37-gentoo kernel tree I see
CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED. Whatever your kernel version use, make sure you
disable it before booting into the kernel again.

> I don't know why udev hasn't been completely integrated into kernel
> development. It's become so much a part of modern Linux and is so
> interdependent with the kernel. Yes, it's in user space, but so are
> other kernel hooks.
>
>> So be sure to check if you disable that as iirc udev will refuse to
>> create the proper device nodes if that kernel option is active.
>
> Question: There are switch and value dependencies in the kernel that
> are Gentoo specific, or specific to system configurations favored by
> Gentoo (similar to what you mentioned above). If I emerge a Gentoo
> kernel, are the default configuration options for that kernel set by
> Gentoo devs so as to build a kernel which will avoid these kinds of
> "gotchas"? In other words, if I build a gentoo kernel out of the box,
> as opposed to a vanilla kernel from kernel.org, do I gain an advantage
> with regard to possibly problematic configuration options on a fairly
> standard Gentoo system? I hope this makes sense.

The vanilla-sources in Gentoo are the kernel.org tree, so they're the
same as getting a kernel version from the kernel site. The
gentoo-sources package include minimal gentoo patches for specific
features. You can read more about our patches at Mike's page[1].

[1] - http://dev.gentoo.org/~mpagano/genpatches/

If I understood your question correctly, you were asking about the
.config options set in the kernel packages, right? My experience is that
the options enabled by default are the ones the person releasing the
kernel tested or finds more useful.
I don't think we can / should claim that the options set are necessarily
the best or the most appropriate for Gentoo or even for a general Linux
kernel. I can say I've at times wondered why certain options were active
and others disabled. Oh and fwiw, I've done an update or two to the
kernel specs of the weekly live-cds for amd64 / x86.
In any case, as I don't work in the kernel team, I'm not the best
qualified person to answer the above question. You may have more luck on
#gentoo-kernel or asking the kernel alias.
In case I misunderstood your question, please let me know and try to
explain it to me so I can try to answer it.

- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng
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Old 03-22-2011, 06:07 AM
Duncan
 
Default System problems

Lindsay Haisley posted on Mon, 21 Mar 2011 17:44:32 -0500 as excerpted:

> On Mon, 2011-03-21 at 22:35 +0000, Tiago Marques wrote:
>> Please go troll elsewhere. Please...
>
> Let's just bring this back to technical discussion of the problem, shall
> we? I think that's what's needed here.

Let me try one more time, then. On my original reply you only responded
to the top half. In the second part I asked a question about whether
you're running an initrd/initramfs, which I repeated again in a second
reply when there was no answer to the first, both times explaining why
it's important and the two different paths one would take from there
depending on the answer.

I'm still waiting on an answer to that, but as I spent quite some time on
the details the first AND second time, I'll simply refer you back to them
this time. You can go back and reply to them, or not. I won't bother
pursuing it further if you don't believe it's worth the followup. No hard
feelings either way, but I believe it could be of help or I'd have not
bothered.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
 
Old 03-22-2011, 06:43 AM
 
Default System problems

Now that you explained more fully the situation and why and what led to your problems I understand some of your frustrations. Sometimes wanting to fix one thing leads to other complex issues. Maybe (being Gentoo-specific) would be first to build your toolchain (linux-headers, glibc, binutils,and gcc) to today's versions then a "emerge -e world" so all of your stuff will be new and compatable-(your original problem). All of this can be done in the background while you keep working. This is only one option. Feel free to use it or not. Sometimes I cuss the Gentoo devs for things they do that screws up my installs too. As to your kernel question as to "default" switches in Gentoo kernel I really don't think there are. Gen-kernel is one answer, but it never worked for me, I always had to get dirty with "make menuconfig". Hope you figure it out. Cheers
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Lindsay Haisley <fmouse-gentoo@fmp.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 21:31:26
To: <gentoo-desktop@lists.gentoo.org>
Reply-to: gentoo-desktop@lists.gentoo.org
Cc: Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto<jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org>
Subject: Re: [gentoo-desktop] System problems

On Tue, 2011-03-22 at 00:37 -0100, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> As such, I would kindly like to ask everyone on this thread to "calm
> down" and to please try to reply in a respectful manner to any poster on
> this ml.

Thank you, Jorge. I will do so, going forward.

> I have to agree with other posters in this ml that your tone when you
> started this thread asking for help wasn't the best one.

I was kinda freaked out. I depend on my desktop system for so many
things in a day, and it's _way_ behind in updates, I know. I got pushed
into a kernel update by a simple software mod, which required a perl
update, which required that I run perl-cleaner, which has issues of its
own, and somewhere along the way I ran into a dependency on a newer
version of udev, which depended on a newer kernel, which I'd tried to
install before with the same or similar problems. I couldn't make
things work and had to resort to a rescue disk to back out. I felt
cornered, and I guess my plea for help showed it.

I actually have enough knowledge and experience with Linux that I can
probably solve this problem myself if I approach it methodically with a
clear head.

> Thank you for the apology you've sent to the list about your tone. Let's
> try to move forward and see if / how we can help you.

I can eat crow with the best of 'em, Jorge.

> PS - Lindsay, two last notes about your issue and your time constraints.
> This type of issue might be easier to diagnose on IRC (one good place is
> #gentoo in the freenode network) where a short intense session may prove
> to be quicker in the end. Also, I haven't seen anyone mention that the
> latest udev versions react *very* badly to CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED_V2.

Ah! Thanks for the heads-up on this. This switch is _not_ on in my
newer kernel, and doesn't exist in my older kernel. CONFIG_SYSFS,
however, _is_ on as I assume it should be for /sys on which udev
depends.

I don't know why udev hasn't been completely integrated into kernel
development. It's become so much a part of modern Linux and is so
interdependent with the kernel. Yes, it's in user space, but so are
other kernel hooks.

> So be sure to check if you disable that as iirc udev will refuse to
> create the proper device nodes if that kernel option is active.

Question: There are switch and value dependencies in the kernel that
are Gentoo specific, or specific to system configurations favored by
Gentoo (similar to what you mentioned above). If I emerge a Gentoo
kernel, are the default configuration options for that kernel set by
Gentoo devs so as to build a kernel which will avoid these kinds of
"gotchas"? In other words, if I build a gentoo kernel out of the box,
as opposed to a vanilla kernel from kernel.org, do I gain an advantage
with regard to possibly problematic configuration options on a fairly
standard Gentoo system? I hope this makes sense.

> PPS - If you decide to test our IRC support, feel free to poke me in any
> channel or to /msg me in private.

Jorge, thank you SO MUCH, for this, (and for being an adult in the
sandbox. I wasn't at the top of my game today :-)

--
Lindsay Haisley | "Humor will get you through times of no humor
FMP Computer Services | better than no humor will get you through
512-259-1190 | times of humor."
http://www.fmp.com | - Butch Hancock
 
Old 03-22-2011, 09:38 AM
Roman Zilka
 
Default System problems

I've gone through the 2.6.36 config. It's indeed overflowing with
exotic options, some of which I have never even read the description
for. I've gone through them, but let's keep their pruning on the
programme in case tackling anything else doesn't lead anywhere.

As for the common config options, I too suggest removing initramfs
completely. The target CPU is set as a generic 64b. Judging by your
`emerge --info`, you probably have a Pentium 4. The config will also
start SELinux by default. God knows I'm not proficient with SELinux,
but I suppose it requires extended attributes support in the
filesystem. Ext_attr is enabled for ext3 (you /boot), but disabled for
reiserfs, which in turn seems to be on your /, judging by the fstab. At
any rate, removing SELinux out of the kernel completely will be far from
harmful (unless you know you need it and actually use it for something
specific, of course). ATA-related options seem to be OK. The /dev nodes
should be called sda*.

Your `emerge --info` implies that the system isn't all that old. That's
very good. I think it's well possible to run at least an 'emerge -uD
world' on the system without messing it up irreversibly. That's one big
(albeit somewhat off-topic) suggestion, in case you're not switching to
another distro really soon.

I can also imagine some highly unlikely, yet possible collision between
the relatively recent in-kernel ext3/reiserfs drivers and the old
userland. If it doesn't cause an avalanche of updates, try emerging the
latest stable udev, e2fsprogs, reiserfsprogs and perhaps also
util-linux and baselayout. Just to be sure. Don't rely on dependencies
absolutely (such as in case of the intended udev semi-update).

Another unlikely, but possible problem: long-forgotten custom udev rules
that are in some way incompatible with something new. Of course, this
may / may not apply depending on how far you get during the boot-up.

So far for the first-hand stuff. Let's wait here for your updates on the
latest events.

-rz


Lindsay Haisley (Mon, 21 Mar 2011 17:38:53 -0500):
> OK, Roman,
>
> I've posted a new kernel config for 2.6.36-gentoo-r5. I haven't had a
> chance to back down the system and try it out yet.
>
> <http://www.fmp.com/~fmouse/vishnu/vishnu_kernel-2.6.36-gentoo-r5_config.txt>
>
> This should be everything you wanted to see in order to impart some of
> your great wisdom and infinite Linux knowledge to me ;-)
>
> Other files you requested are shown in the index at
> <http://www.fmp.com/~fmouse/vishnu/>, as previously noted.
>
> Have at!
>
 
Old 03-22-2011, 02:41 PM
Lindsay Haisley
 
Default System problems

On Tue, 2011-03-22 at 07:07 +0000, Duncan wrote:
> Lindsay Haisley posted on Mon, 21 Mar 2011 17:44:32 -0500 as excerpted:
>
> > On Mon, 2011-03-21 at 22:35 +0000, Tiago Marques wrote:
> >> Please go troll elsewhere. Please...
> >
> > Let's just bring this back to technical discussion of the problem, shall
> > we? I think that's what's needed here.
>
> Let me try one more time, then. On my original reply you only responded
> to the top half. In the second part I asked a question about whether
> you're running an initrd/initramfs, which I repeated again in a second
> reply when there was no answer to the first, both times explaining why
> it's important and the two different paths one would take from there
> depending on the answer.

Duncan, I'm very sorry to have overlooked your question (twice)! Please
accept my apology. The answer is no, on the box is question, I'm not
running an initrd/initramfs, and unless it's necessary I would rather
not do so. If I were, this would be one explanation for the problem.

> I'm still waiting on an answer to that, but as I spent quite some time on
> the details the first AND second time, I'll simply refer you back to them
> this time.

Thanks for following up. I'll re-read your posts and get back on this.
I haven't been able to follow up on the problem. It's planting season
here and beyond doing email I've been kinda tired and not up for late
night hacking after a day spent building a greenhouse or whatever. At
this point, with a cooler head and a verified back out path, I'm 99%
sure I can solve the problem myself. I was kind of freaked out when
this problem originally happened since I depend so heavily on the
desktop system for company billing, website development, customer
support, etc. I guess my original post to this list on this problem
showed this and got me and everyone else off on the wrong foot.

--
Lindsay Haisley |"Windows .....
FMP Computer Services | life's too short!"
512-259-1190 |
http://www.fmp.com | - Brad Johnston
 
Old 03-22-2011, 03:35 PM
Lindsay Haisley
 
Default System problems

Thanks, eamjr56!

On Tue, 2011-03-22 at 07:43 +0000, eamjr56@gmail.com wrote:
> Now that you explained more fully the situation and why and what led
> to your problems I understand some of your frustrations. Sometimes
> wanting to fix one thing leads to other complex issues. Maybe (being
> Gentoo-specific) would be first to build your toolchain
> (linux-headers, glibc, binutils,and gcc) to today's versions then a
> "emerge -e world" so all of your stuff will be new and
> compatable-(your original problem).

The box is scheduled for replacement, as I've noted. The hardware is
old, relatively, and has limitations. Additionally, Gentoo has its
limitations as a desktop environment, although it's much easier to
maintain on servers. As Linux has to some extent penetrated the
marketplace, manufacturers are distributing drivers for things like
printers as .deb or .rpm files - no joy for Gentoo users :-( My sweetie
bought such a printer a while back, and I can't use it for this reason.
Pulling packages apart and installing the contents manually is possible,
but not simple, and I have other things to do.

I'm reluctant to "emerge -e world" on the box because X is seriously out
of date, and I've been trying to avoid having to deal with the issue.
revdep-rebuild takes days! And it bails if _any_ ebuild fails, so I
have to go to the office, figure out the problem, and restart the
process. When I get the box so it'll boot properly with a more recent
kernel I can at least move in that direction.


> All of this can be done in the background while you keep working.
> This is only one option. Feel free to use it or not. Sometimes I cuss
> the Gentoo devs for things they do that screws up my installs too.

Gentoo is substantially more complex as a distribution than are others.
Subtle screw-ups in ebuilds are more than just an annoyance on my
servers, where things break in the background after an emerge and I
don't find out until one or more customers calls me and says "**** isn't
working!"

> As to your kernel question as to "default" switches in Gentoo
> kernel I really don't think there are. Gen-kernel is one answer, but
> it never worked for me, I always had to get dirty with "make
> menuconfig".

I tried genkernel for a while and didn't like it. For one thing, I
recall that it installed an initrd, which introduced a level of
complexity that I didn't feel was necessary. I use an initrd on our
SOHO gateway box since the root filesystem is managed by EVMS, but I had
to manually re-write the initrd filesystem at one point pursuant to a
glibc upgrade! Too much work.

I assume that there must some mods to or initial setting of the default
kernel switches, somewhere, to avoid things such as enabling CONFIG_IDE
in a kernel build where it conflicts with recent releases of udev.

When I get a few moments to work on it again I'm starting with a new,
much more recent kernel and _not_ massaging my .config from a previous
kernel for it. I assume the default settings will at very least produce
a bootable system and I need only add drivers/modules for my hardware -
NIC, sound cards, etc. to get it up and running. I can go in and add
stuff later as needed.

> Hope you figure it out. Cheers

Thanks, really. I mean it! With a cooler head and a verified back down
plan for any changes I may make (plus the few points of light I received
on this list in spite of the misunderstandings), I'm 99% sure I can jump
in an fix the problem myself. If I post here with it again, I'll have
my presentation of the issue MUCH better organized and thought out.

--
Lindsay Haisley |"Windows .....
FMP Computer Services | life's too short!"
512-259-1190 |
http://www.fmp.com | - Brad Johnston
 
Old 03-22-2011, 04:00 PM
Paul Hartman
 
Default System problems

On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse-gentoo@fmp.com> wrote:
> And it bails if _any_ ebuild fails, so I
> have to go to the office, figure out the problem, and restart the
> process.

With a new-enough portage you can use the --keep-going switch to cause
it to emerge everything it possibly can emerge which is not dependent
on the failed package.

If your system is new enough to support bootable CD/DVD/USB, I'd try
to find a linux live CD which runs the same kernel version that you're
hoping to switch to, and (assuming it works) look at its kernel
config, dmesg, lspci -k, that sort of thing, and try to use it as a
hint for configuring your own kernel on your hardware. You can chroot
into gentoo from the liveCD and do all the kernel compilation stuff
from there so it might be relatively painless.
 

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