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Old 06-20-2008, 03:25 PM
Lindsay Haisley
 
Default Drag and drop failure - solved!

On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 04:41 +0000, Duncan wrote:
> YMMV on this as I'm a KDE power user and as a result, dislike GNOME's
> crippled options with a passion, but I'd suggest checking dbus. It
> sounds like the dbus messages aren't getting thru telling the app over
> which the mouse is hovering that it's there.

Hey, Duncan,

I posted to this list yesterday, but in the fatigue-induced fog in which
was operating I probably put in the wrong from address and the email got
trashed by the list server.

A switch and switch back of window managers, plus a restart of the user
account solved the problem - kind of a Linux equivalent of Microsoft's
"three R's" technique.

I generally agree with you these days about Gnome vs. KDE. It used to
be that Gnome had an edge on really creative and abundant software
design, which is why I settled on it, but with the switch to GTK2 a lot
of really nice features in a lot of apps got dropped and other stuff
just got abandoned. I've played a little bit with programming for
Gnome. The Gobject pseudo-OO framework is an abomination and the API is
pretty messy. KDE just uses plain old C++, which is plenty adequate.
KDE packages that I've used on my Gnome desktop, notably k3b for CD and
music work, is really solid and feature-rich without being overloaded
with cruft. I'm really attached to galeon as a browser, but am
switching to firefox for web development, which will run on both Gnome
and KDE. Maybe it's time to revisit KDE.

--
Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works | PGP public key
FMP Computer Services | if you let it" | available at
512-259-1190 | (The Roadie) | http://pubkeys.fmp.com
http://www.fmp.com | |



--
gentoo-desktop@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 06-20-2008, 04:55 PM
Duncan
 
Default Drag and drop failure - solved!

Lindsay Haisley <fmouse-gentoo@fmp.com> posted
1213975533.11573.19.camel@localhost.localdomain, excerpted below, on Fri,
20 Jun 2008 10:25:33 -0500:

> I posted to this list yesterday, but in the fatigue-induced fog in which
> was operating I probably put in the wrong from address and the email got
> trashed by the list server.

FWIW, I prefer newsgroups and thus use gmane.org to follow most of my
mailing lists as newsgroups. Couple that with news profiles that pan
(the main gtk app I still use) remembers per group, and I don't have to
worry about using the wrong address. Of course, news has always been
somewhat obscure, unlike mail, so it's not a solution for everyone, but
it works for me. =8^)

> A switch and switch back of window managers, plus a restart of the user
> account solved the problem - kind of a Linux equivalent of Microsoft's
> "three R's" technique.

=8^)

> I generally agree with you these days about Gnome vs. KDE. It used to
> be that Gnome had an edge on really creative and abundant software
> design, which is why I settled on it, but with the switch to GTK2 a lot
> of really nice features in a lot of apps got dropped and other stuff
> just got abandoned.

That was always my feeling too. GNOME 1 had some promise, just as KDE 2
did, but GNOME 2 went one way and KDE 3 went another... and I preferred
KDE. KDE 4 has yet to prove itself either way. At minimum, they botched
the rollout there. While I'll often run bleeding edge betas, 4.0 was
early alpha, there were simply too many missing features to be usable
here. 4.1 is supposed to be much better. I'll see, when it comes out.
I still believe they'll get there, but given 4.0, I'm not at all sure
about 4.1. It may well be 4.2 or even 4.3 before it's actually worth
switching from 3.5.x for me.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman

--
gentoo-desktop@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 06-20-2008, 05:27 PM
Lindsay Haisley
 
Default Drag and drop failure - solved!

On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 16:55 +0000, Duncan wrote:
> FWIW, I prefer newsgroups and thus use gmane.org to follow most of my
> mailing lists as newsgroups. Couple that with news profiles that pan
> (the main gtk app I still use) remembers per group, and I don't have to
> worry about using the wrong address. Of course, news has always been
> somewhat obscure, unlike mail, so it's not a solution for everyone, but
> it works for me. =8^)

Are you talking about Usenet newsgroups? Usenet is a service I expected
to die a natural death _years_ ago! Talk about an Internet service that
doesn't scale well ....! Used to be that every ISP that wanted to
provide Usenet to its customers had to have at least one mondo computer
with mondo hard drives, plus a mondo feed, so that they could keep a
_local_ copy of every newsgroup to which their customers wanted to
subscribe as it came down the pike. I understand that its gotten a bit
more centralized now.

My "wrong address" is a holdover from my use of Tagged Message Delivery
Agent on my mail server for my email. Special email addresses, e.g.
"fmouse-gentoo@fmp.com", were exempted from TMDA processing. I don't
use TMDA anymore and really ought to change my subscriptions. I have a
lot of "ought to"s here and a severe shortage of round tuits :-)

> > I generally agree with you these days about Gnome vs. KDE. It used to
> > be that Gnome had an edge on really creative and abundant software
> > design, which is why I settled on it, but with the switch to GTK2 a lot
> > of really nice features in a lot of apps got dropped and other stuff
> > just got abandoned.
>
> That was always my feeling too. GNOME 1 had some promise, just as KDE 2
> did, but GNOME 2 went one way and KDE 3 went another... and I preferred
> KDE. KDE 4 has yet to prove itself either way. At minimum, they botched
> the rollout there. While I'll often run bleeding edge betas, 4.0 was
> early alpha, there were simply too many missing features to be usable
> here. 4.1 is supposed to be much better. I'll see, when it comes out.
> I still believe they'll get there, but given 4.0, I'm not at all sure
> about 4.1. It may well be 4.2 or even 4.3 before it's actually worth

I see that Gentoo is stable at KDE 3.5.9, which I have as an alternative
from my gdm login (and which my desktop just spent many hours
re-emerging). I'll take a look at it. Thanks for the encouragement.

I do note that KDE ebuilds seldom if ever crap during a build, which is
not always true with gnome ebuilds.

Question: Can I run Evolution on KDE? the gnome people kind of adopted
Evolution, like they absorbed Eautilus, from Ximian. I have a lot of
time and work involved in setting up my mail and contact data which I
doubt would translate to Kontact/KMail without additional substantial
work. Does Kontact support address collections on an LDAP server?

--
Lindsay Haisley | "The difference between | PGP public key
FMP Computer Services | a duck is that one leg | available at
512-259-1190 | is both the same" | http://pubkeys.fmp.com
http://www.fmp.com | - Anonymous |

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Old 06-20-2008, 09:46 PM
Duncan
 
Default Drag and drop failure - solved!

Lindsay Haisley <fmouse-gentoo@fmp.com> posted
1213982834.21012.25.camel@vishnu.fmp.com, excerpted below, on Fri, 20 Jun
2008 12:27:14 -0500:

> On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 16:55 +0000, Duncan wrote:
>> FWIW, I prefer newsgroups and thus use gmane.org to follow most of my
>> mailing lists as newsgroups.

> Are you talking about Usenet newsgroups? Usenet is a service I expected
> to die a natural death _years_ ago! Talk about an Internet service that
> doesn't scale well ....!

That's it... but it's actually reasonable when used as originally
intended, for /text/ groups, or in this case text mailing lists. There
are many more or less hobbyists out there running text-only news
servers. Gmane.org is one, tho it's rather different than others in that
it's not a regular news server, but a list2news (and back) gateway.
Users connect to the server and subscribe to newsgroups, which they can
read. Posting is allowed to most, with gmane forwarding the post to the
list as it would to the moderator of a moderated newsgroup. Of course,
because it's a gateway to a list, the list posting rules apply, so if the
list requires subscription to post, than the post won't go thru unless
you've subscribed to the list as well. Most users do so, then drop to
"vacation mode", where they can post but don't get the mailings, since
they participate thru gmane. I do all my gentoo lists as gmane groups,
thus keeping my mail client free of the routine post clutter.

Back to your scaling thing, tho, if newsgroups are used for binary, then
yes, there's somewhat of a scaling problem. However, there are
advantages as well. But this really isn't the thread for that discussion.

> I have a lot of "ought to"s here and a severe shortage of
> round tuits :-)

Heh, don't we all?

> I see that Gentoo is stable at KDE 3.5.9, which I have as an alternative
> from my gdm login (and which my desktop just spent many hours
> re-emerging). I'll take a look at it. Thanks for the encouragement.

Pardon a bit of boasting here. Quad-cores (here, as 2x dual-core 2.8 GHz
Opteron 290s) running 4+ gigs memory (here 8 gig) with PORTAGE_TMPDIR
pointed at a tmpfs so all the compiling is done in RAM... Those "many
hours" you speak of tend to shrink down to ~4 hours for a full KDE
remerge. When I was trying the KDE4 SVN builds and thus had already
compiled most of it, if I recompiled every day or two, it'd run 1-2
hours, and that's while continuing to use the system normally, including
playing streaming Internet radio with moderate visualization running
too. That's actually quite reasonable -- so much so that I had far more
trouble finding the time to actually test the builds than to compile them.

It was then that I realized... in a couple years, when quad-core and 2-4
gigs RAM is normal, the current big difference, the compile time, between
source based distributions like Gentoo, and binary distributions like
Fedora and Ubuntu, will pretty much disappear, because it'll take as much
or more time to configure and try out new apps, as it will to compile
them, and even when doing the long compiles, compiling will be a
background task that doesn't interfere with whatever else one is doing.
At that point, what is now the big time difference between source and
binary distributions will disappear, and all the much smaller differences
as one typically sees in evaluations of the various binary distributions
will come to the fore. It'll be interesting to see how that affects the
distribution landscape.

(OTOH, trends in the opposite hardware direction, toward netbooks/umpcs
and the like, may negate this. Still, it's likely enough many people
will have a decently powered home system to do the compiling, and then
just install binpkgs on their netbooks. Right now I'm planning on
getting an Acer Aspire One later this summer, sticking in one of those
120 gig Supertalent SATA SSDs now available for <$650 @ newegg, and using
it for an MP3 player plus netbook. I plan on doing a chroot Gentoo/~x86
on my main machine for compiling, using FEATURES=binpkg, and then
installing from binpkg on the AA1.)

> Question: Can I run Evolution on KDE? the gnome people kind of adopted
> Evolution, like they absorbed Eautilus, from Ximian. I have a lot of
> time and work involved in setting up my mail and contact data which I
> doubt would translate to Kontact/KMail without additional substantial
> work. Does Kontact support address collections on an LDAP server?

I use kmail standalone, not in kontact. It's decent on POP3 which is
what I'm using it for, and works for system mail too (I have it setup to
check a system maildir folder into which I have scripts that deposit my
cron run mail and etc, so I don't have to run a full system SMTP setup)
but still gets mixed reviews on IMAP. Evolution should run fine on KDE
tho I've not run it, but of course being a GNOME app, it'll bring with it
all sorts of GNOME dependencies. Hopefully someone who has tried it can
fill in more details for you.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman

--
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Old 06-21-2008, 12:12 AM
Lindsay Haisley
 
Default Drag and drop failure - solved!

On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 21:46 +0000, Duncan wrote:
> Evolution should run fine on KDE
> tho I've not run it, but of course being a GNOME app, it'll bring with it
> all sorts of GNOME dependencies. Hopefully someone who has tried it can
> fill in more details for you.

Evolution started out as a desktop-independent app, so maybe it can
still run in other desktop environments. It's an odd piece. The
feature design is absolutely brilliant, but somewhere along the way the
programming got short shrift. Maybe it's just manifesting underlying
bugs in GTK+ and Gobject, but if you do anything in the least insulting
to it, it goes away. I wouldn't use its internal mail storage, or rely
on any internal data storage features. All my mail is done with IMAP
from my servers, and my address database is backed up on a couple of
LDAP databases which I can also get to from a web UI when I'm on the
road. If you (or anyone) is interested, google for "Living with
Evolution" and the first thing that comes up is a piece I wrote on it a
while back. Anyone who uses the program for more than casual purposes
ought to read it. ´╗┐Evolution is typical Gnome stuff. Absolutely
brilliant in theory and design but buggy as all getout.

I checked out KMail. Yes, it runs LDAP, but only to transfer name and
phone number info into its internal database - not address and details -
and it doesn't display LDAP data on a par with its internal db as
Evolution does.

--
Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works | PGP public key
FMP Computer Services | if you let it" | available at
512-259-1190 | (The Roadie) | http://pubkeys.fmp.com
http://www.fmp.com | |



--
gentoo-desktop@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 06-21-2008, 01:57 AM
Duncan
 
Default Drag and drop failure - solved!

Lindsay Haisley <fmouse-gentoo@fmp.com> posted
1214007177.17338.20.camel@localhost.localdomain, excerpted below, on Fri,
20 Jun 2008 19:12:57 -0500:

> Evolution [is] an odd piece. The feature design is absolutely
> brilliant, but somewhere along the way the programming got short
> shrift. [i]f you do anything in the least insulting
> to it, it goes away. [...] ´╗┐Evolution is typical Gnome stuff.
> Absolutely brilliant in theory and design but buggy as all getout.

LOL! That's about the reputation I've seen of it. Still, having never
tried it, I didn't feel it my place to say so. Glad even its perhaps
best users have a healthy appreciation for its reputation and faults. To
bad it has to be so finicky, however, as there's a lot of folks that
depend on it and could really use better stability.

> I checked out KMail. Yes, it runs LDAP, but only to transfer name and
> phone number info into its internal database - not address and details -
> and it doesn't display LDAP data on a par with its internal db as
> Evolution does.

FWIW, nearly all the KDE guys' focus has been on KDE 4, for two years
now. The KDE 3 side of things has been maintained, but not a lot more.
With KDE 4.1 completing the kdepim transition to KDE 4 (it wasn't all
there for 4.0), 4.2 should bring some new features again, including the
first major new kontact features in awhile. You're right to be checking
the 3.5.9 version at the moment, but it really hasn't had a whole lot
done to it for awhile due to the above. So if it's not meeting your
needs now and it doesn't appear it can, I'd certainly recommend checking
it out again around 4.2 or 4.3. Once they get up to speed on KDE 4, the
better modularization, integrated search features, etc, should really
start to add up to something that can move pretty fast, very possibly
ultimately surpassing Evolution. Even basically matching it while
keeping stability will be a big deal, as you noted. However, it's not
there yet.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman

--
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